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Thread: ideas in the shadow

  1. #31
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    Default Re: ideas in the shadow

    Anyway, JB37, we'll let MLW have his say.

  2. #32
    Alessandro is offline Contributing Member (10-99 posts)
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    Default Re: ideas in the shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by JeremyB37 View Post
    If MLW ever feels it's worth replying then they may do.

    For me, including your post #26, you are talking scientific and clinical nonsense.
    Dear Jeremy
    I try again.
    I believe that AIDS is caused by bacteria, you believe that it is caused by heroin, malnutrition, popper and sperm. How can you explain African AIDS?
    I mean (again)
    the majority of AIDS cases in the world occurred (and occurs) in Africa. We should subtract false cases intentionally and fraudolently added, we should probably also subtract cases that are caused by the anti-viral therapies. So the AIDS African cases would decrease of an order of magnitude (they would became 10 times less). However, they still remain the majority of the AIDS cases in the world. Well, most of the people who died of AIDS in Africa were malnutrished, that is true. However, many others (whose number is probably greater than the total of male homosexuals and drugs injectors died of AIDS in north America and Europe) died of AIDS despite they have eaten all their life plenty of good organic food (not the junk food that you usually eat in England and North America). And they do not know at all what is heroin, popper and usually even anal sex.
    How can you fucking explain that???
    Kind regards

  3. #33
    Deksman2 is offline Veteran Member (100+ posts)
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    Default Re: ideas in the shadow

    What the heck constitutes as 'good organic food'?
    There is very little credible evidence suggesting GMO's are bad for human consumption.
    There is however a lot more data to support the idea that consumption of animal products (organic or not) is the leading cause of medical issues across the world.
    The animals are given huge amounts of antibiotics so they can be mass bred in huge numbers, living in closed spaces (right next to each other, and in some cases on top of each other) and survive under such horrible conditions.
    Antibiotic resistant bacteria commonly arise under such conditions, and the antibiotics found in animal meat end up in Humans who eat them, contributing to infections.

    Peer-review studies have uncovered that removing consumption of all animal products from one's nutrition results in less production of acidic bile, which also generates a lot more of healthy bacteria in the gut (minimizing risks in contracting an illness or developing cancer).
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4073139/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4245565/

    As for Africa... malnutrition, or people going hungry is common there, and those who do eat enough foods, they do end up eating a heavy meat based diet or diet that doesn't give them any relevant nutrients, resulting in a wide-variety of nutritional deficiencies that contribute to infectious diseases.
    Add to that that in Africa, there is a predominant case of dark skinned Humans who are essentially lacking in Vitamin D due to their skin being naturally resistant to UVB rays, plus there's wearing of clothes that prevents Vitamin D generation in the skin (dark skinned Humans would need on average between 2 to 4 times more sun exposure than light skinned Humans to generate same amounts of Vitamin D, and most people wear clothing throughout the day - shorts and t-shirts which isn't enough because you only expose arms and legs, resulting in about 10x LESS vitamin D generation).
    Same problem occurs in developed western nations... most people are Vitamin D deficient because they don't get nearly enough sun exposure, and their diet is riddled with animal products to the point where they end up deficient in many important nutrients (interestingly, people who do eat animal products are commonly deficient in B12 and Zinc - people on plant based diets CAN source active B12 from nori/seaweed according to peer-review, and Zinc from leafy greens - most people focusing on consumption of animal products have a much lower intake of varied vegetables and fruits, let alone nuts and seeds that are packed with minerals such as Magnesium, Selenium, Iron, etc.).

    In Africa, the problem is exacerbated further due to less than optimal intake of food, hence why AIDS cases are more common.
    As to it being bacterial or purely a malnutrition problem... it is more likely that AIDS is the end result of a plethora of environmental factors that negatively impact Human health (so, it can easily be caused by both malnutrition and bacterial infection).
    The effects are less pronounced in western countries due to health care being of possibly higher quality and more accessible (at least to those that have the money to gain such access).

    The proposal for AIDS in Africa being mainly driven by malnutrition is not an invalid one... that doesn't preclude it from having connections to bacterial causes though.
    Indeed, AIDS is extremely similar in all symptoms to end stage of untreated Syphilis. The described symptoms are essentially identical ranging from both the time it needs to develop (10 years, or more, or sometimes never), resulting in a plethora of medical problems such as dementia (neuro-Syphilis), degraded immune system where other dormant infections such as Herpes and CMV could cause other problems.

    There is a host of issues one can draw connections from for both Africa and the western world.

  4. #34
    Alessandro is offline Contributing Member (10-99 posts)
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    Default Re: ideas in the shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Deksman2 View Post
    What the heck constitutes as 'good organic food'?
    There is very little credible evidence suggesting GMO's are bad for human consumption.
    There is however a lot more data to support the idea that consumption of animal products (organic or not) is the leading cause of medical issues across the world.
    The animals are given huge amounts of antibiotics so they can be mass bred in huge numbers, living in closed spaces (right next to each other, and in some cases on top of each other) and survive under such horrible conditions.
    Antibiotic resistant bacteria commonly arise under such conditions, and the antibiotics found in animal meat end up in Humans who eat them, contributing to infections.

    Peer-review studies have uncovered that removing consumption of all animal products from one's nutrition results in less production of acidic bile, which also generates a lot more of healthy bacteria in the gut (minimizing risks in contracting an illness or developing cancer).
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4073139/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4245565/

    As for Africa... malnutrition, or people going hungry is common there, and those who do eat enough foods, they do end up eating a heavy meat based diet or diet that doesn't give them any relevant nutrients, resulting in a wide-variety of nutritional deficiencies that contribute to infectious diseases.
    Add to that that in Africa, there is a predominant case of dark skinned Humans who are essentially lacking in Vitamin D due to their skin being naturally resistant to UVB rays, plus there's wearing of clothes that prevents Vitamin D generation in the skin (dark skinned Humans would need on average between 2 to 4 times more sun exposure than light skinned Humans to generate same amounts of Vitamin D, and most people wear clothing throughout the day - shorts and t-shirts which isn't enough because you only expose arms and legs, resulting in about 10x LESS vitamin D generation).
    Same problem occurs in developed western nations... most people are Vitamin D deficient because they don't get nearly enough sun exposure, and their diet is riddled with animal products to the point where they end up deficient in many important nutrients (interestingly, people who do eat animal products are commonly deficient in B12 and Zinc - people on plant based diets CAN source active B12 from nori/seaweed according to peer-review, and Zinc from leafy greens - most people focusing on consumption of animal products have a much lower intake of varied vegetables and fruits, let alone nuts and seeds that are packed with minerals such as Magnesium, Selenium, Iron, etc.).

    In Africa, the problem is exacerbated further due to less than optimal intake of food, hence why AIDS cases are more common.
    As to it being bacterial or purely a malnutrition problem... it is more likely that AIDS is the end result of a plethora of environmental factors that negatively impact Human health (so, it can easily be caused by both malnutrition and bacterial infection).
    The effects are less pronounced in western countries due to health care being of possibly higher quality and more accessible (at least to those that have the money to gain such access).

    The proposal for AIDS in Africa being mainly driven by malnutrition is not an invalid one... that doesn't preclude it from having connections to bacterial causes though.
    Indeed, AIDS is extremely similar in all symptoms to end stage of untreated Syphilis. The described symptoms are essentially identical ranging from both the time it needs to develop (10 years, or more, or sometimes never), resulting in a plethora of medical problems such as dementia (neuro-Syphilis), degraded immune system where other dormant infections such as Herpes and CMV could cause other problems.

    There is a host of issues one can draw connections from for both Africa and the western world.
    No, no! African people without economic problems eat very well, much better than in North America and North Europe. They drink clean water and an apparently decent health care is available for them. If some of them lack vitamin D, the doctor (like in all the world) suggest them to eat more cheese, take some vitamin D in the pharmacy and stay more time under the sun at the swimming pool. However they died of AIDS anyway. Much less in number than poor Africans, sure. But more than all the European and North American male homosexual and drugs injectors taken together. They do not use heroin and popper and they are not used to have their ass screwed. So, how can you and Jeremy explain that?
    You should answer to this question not wandering off.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: ideas in the shadow

    1. The lifestyle factors in people who were genuinely ill and died in North America and Europe are very easily proven to be the cause of immune suppression, not 'bacteria' per se at all.
    2. There is no such thing as African 'AIDS' - its Malaria, TB, malnutrition and lack of access to primary health care.
    If you think that what is described as 'AIDS' in Africa bears any remotely clinical comparison to the West then frankly you are talking nonsense.
    People dying of immune related illnesses in Africa were eating food available to them and within their cultural ambit. Talking about 'good' or 'other' organic food is [naive - JBleau].
    As for suggesting people in the west eat crap and Africans don't beggars belief.
    If eating 'junk food' alone was the major problem then there would be MILLIONS dying every day of 'AIDS' in the West. There aren't.

    This discussion is going down the drain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alessandro View Post
    Dear Jeremy
    I try again.
    I believe that AIDS is caused by bacteria, you believe that it is caused by heroin, malnutrition, popper and sperm. How can you explain African AIDS?
    I mean (again)
    the majority of AIDS cases in the world occurred (and occurs) in Africa. We should subtract false cases intentionally and fraudolently added, we should probably also subtract cases that are caused by the anti-viral therapies. So the AIDS African cases would decrease of an order of magnitude (they would became 10 times less). However, they still remain the majority of the AIDS cases in the world. Well, most of the people who died of AIDS in Africa were malnutrished, that is true. However, many others (whose number is probably greater than the total of male homosexuals and drugs injectors died of AIDS in north America and Europe) died of AIDS despite they have eaten all their life plenty of good organic food (not the junk food that you usually eat in England and North America). And they do not know at all what is heroin, popper and usually even anal sex.
    How can you fucking explain that???
    Kind regards
    Last edited by John Bleau; November 2nd, 2016 at 04:04 AM. Reason: Removed inflammatory words

  6. #36
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    Default Re: ideas in the shadow

    I doubt that anyone reading this thread would disagree that this discussion is going down the drain.

    Alessandro: I'm sorry if no one was able to answer your original question as succinctly as you might have wished. I think you are generally correct re: the TPG vs Duesberg positions, but obviously the differences are much more complex, as show by JeremyB37's additional insight in his first response (post #2).

    After that, things started deteriorating into an argument that was hard for me to even follow, and now it's degraded to personal attacks of who is stupider than the other. Few people are interested in reading that kind of senseless bickering.

    Since you started the thread, feel free to make your final comment pertaining to the topic at hand. At that point the thread will be closed to further discussion.




    Quote Originally Posted by JeremyB37 View Post

    This discussion is going down the drain.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: ideas in the shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Alessandro View Post
    6) AIDS occurs also without heroin, cocaine, popper, human sperm, malnutrition, junk food and emotional stress
    During these years I have chatted with many people on the seropositives channel here in Spain, and there have been some gay people telling me they are seropositive but they have not taken poppers nor other drugs, and even have practiced very few anal sex with ejaculation and without condom (even only a unique intercourse). This experience, and this discussion with deceased member Gos, led me to question the Perth Group oxidative theory.

    Additionally, there are studies like the Multicenter AIDS Cohort Study indicating, or at least suggesting, that seropositivity is being adquired only by the passive partner, but it seems this could not be true. You can, for example, go to a gay contacts web like Manhunt.net and do a "seropositive and only active" search, and you obtain quite a few results, although it is true they are generally people above 30 years old.

    However, on the other hand, I remain completely convinced that the alleged HIV virus has not complied with the necessary rules to accept its existence, as the Perth Group postulate too.

    For these reasons, I consider Alessandro's theory at least interesting, and I am surprised it has not been previously exposed in this forum.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: ideas in the shadow

    There is zero evidence for that.
    People in Africa are said to have died with 'AIDS' simply because they had raised protein levels seen in an 'HIV' test. Nothing else, even though if you look at the studies by people who actually know what they are looking for and know what they are talking about, the causes of death are ones common in Africa.
    The fact you do not accept that is immaterial.
    If you want to understand better then read here:
    http://tig.org.za/the_hiv_symposium/tag/tig/

    Unlike unravel I see nothing remotely interesting in your 'theory' as I can't even see a theory, it merely looks to me like clinical and scientific meandering with no knowledge base.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alessandro View Post
    No, no! African people without economic problems eat very well, much better than in North America and North Europe. They drink clean water and an apparently decent health care is available for them. If some of them lack vitamin D, the doctor (like in all the world) suggest them to eat more cheese, take some vitamin D in the pharmacy and stay more time under the sun at the swimming pool. However they died of AIDS anyway. Much less in number than poor Africans, sure. But more than all the European and North American male homosexual and drugs injectors taken together. They do not use heroin and popper and they are not used to have their ass screwed. So, how can you and Jeremy explain that?
    You should answer to this question not wandering off.

  9. #39
    MLW is offline Contributing Member (10-99 posts)
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    Default Re: ideas in the shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by UnRaVel View Post
    During these years I have chatted with many people on the seropositives channel here in Spain, and there have been some gay people telling me they are seropositive but they have not taken poppers nor other drugs, and even have practiced very few anal sex with ejaculation and without condom (even only a unique intercourse). This experience, and this discussion with deceased member Gos, led me to question the Perth Group oxidative theory.

    Additionally, there are studies like the Multicenter AIDS Cohort Study indicating, or at least suggesting, that seropositivity is being adquired only by the passive partner, but it seems this could not be true. You can, for example, go to a gay contacts web like Manhunt.net and do a "seropositive and only active" search, and you obtain quite a few results, although it is true they are generally people above 30 years old.

    However, on the other hand, I remain completely convinced that the alleged HIV virus has not complied with the necessary rules to accept its existence, as the Perth Group postulate too.

    For these reasons, I consider Alessandro's theory at least interesting, and I am surprised it has not been previously exposed in this forum.
    There could be other ways that cellular stress and toxicity come about beyond the PG theory. Personally I have begun to combine the PG approach with some of the ideas of Ray Peat. He makes a convincing argument that thymus/thyroid degeneracy play a role http://raypeat.com/articles/articles...ficiency.shtml. It's indeed possible that the PG theory can't explain everything. Also those anecdotes in regards Manhunt or online discussion are exactly that. That's not to say they are nothing, however, like I said there are other ways that Gallo's test can come about positive. It's possible that the protein marker that G&M supposedly discovered can indeed stick to someone who is not of the traditional risk factor. Perhaps it's a specific stressor that makes it happen who knows. It would help to see data where unconventional positives actually progressed to 'AIDS'.

    Overall though I consider the existence of exoviral agents/species and an immune system to be completely unverified at this point.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: ideas in the shadow

    There are more non-mainstream theories than just TPG's and Duesberg's.

    I wish I had read Robert Root-Bernstein's book Rethinking AIDS much sooner than I did. It goes a long ways toward laying out a multi-factorial theory that explains how AIDS developed in the gay male community in the West.

    His theory does not directly conflict with either of the above, though he does accept the existence of HIV. Even TPG is careful to say that HIV's existence has not been proven according to well accepted scientific standards; not that the virus does not exist.

    The book can be bought used in very good condition on Amazon for less than $5, including shipping in the U.S. You'd have to look to see what it runs in other countries.

    I have had more success in getting mainstream "HIV/AIDS" advocates and service providers to listen to presentations utilizing R-B's data and extrapolation than any other dissident argument. I see them begin to question the sole and sufficient cause hypothesis, as well as the risks of PrEP and other orthodox nonsense.

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