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Thread: New member: CD4 620, VL 300 000

  1. #1
    Joey is offline New Member (< 10 posts)
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    Default New member: CD4 620, VL 300 000

    Hello,

    I'm new to this forum, but been following it here for quite some time now. I'm 27 years old, was diagnosed in 2014, but probably got infected in summer of 2013. To hear the diagnosis was devastating news to me and to this day I'm not OK with what has happened to me.

    First, I'm not a promiscuous guy (not that a person has to be to contract HIV, just a fact about me). In fact, I only had 4 sexual intercourses in my entire life (with 4 different partners). As it turns out, it was the second one that got me infected. I still don't know how that happened, because I've always insisted on using condoms and would NEVER knowingly let anyone go without it when having sex with me (I'm bottom BTW).
    It probably happened when that guy somehow pulled the condom off when I wasn't looking, but what can I know now... Only speculations and blurry memories (literally, cause I had my glasses off, haha). For a long time I wasn't suspecting this particular guy. I was like "We used a condom, everything was fine!" But then I began to question it. The most obvious sign it was him, who infected me, was that I got seriously ill 2 weeks after the hookup. Typical signs - oral ulcers, fever, sweating and overwhelming fatigue, all got me lying down in bed for a week. I was never sick like this before, it was very unusual and I couldn't figure out what it was and where I caught it.
    I tried to contact this guy after my diagnosis a few times. At first, we exchanged a few messages and he insisted that he's neg. After a while he stopped responding and has even blocked my number. But I still have a plan to contact him, ideally face to face. I need some answers from him, some honest answers. Anyway, that's a different story.

    Back to my "profile", if you will. I'm also a VERY health conscious person, into healthy eating, cooking, sports, not smoking and rarely drinking etc. So this news was like a nightmare to me. My first numbers were kind of okay - CD4 680, VL 60 000. I was offered to start meds right away as an option, but I chose not to. To make the story short, I needed more information. So I watched House of Numbers, read tons of forum's posts (on here, but also on the mainstream sites like poz.com, or thebody.com) listened to podcasts, watched YouTube videos etc. I think I have a decent understanding of who's saying what in this orthodox vs. dissident debate, if I can simplify it like this.

    Since my diagnosis and my first labs, I could just not accept this whole new situation that I got myself in somehow. I don't want to say I became delusional, but I refused to "give in" and going to see my doctor every 3 months to see how my numbers are and when to start taking ARVs. I was like "No, I'm just letting it go for now and if I start to feel unwell, I'll try to do something about it." It's a known fact HIV progresses towards AIDS in 9-10 years on average, so I thought I had time.

    I was healthy for more than a year after diagnosis. It has all changed in December 2015. I got bronchitis last Christmas and it lasted for almost 3 weeks. Then I got better, but after a month it came back. I was scared it might be pneumonia, so I got an x-ray and saw my regular doctor. She knows I'm poz, but she didn't refuse to treat me as a neg person. She just advised me to go back to my HIV doctor and I told her I will. I got some "standard" ATBs prescribed (not Bactrim or Septra) by her. It was still bronchitis, btw. Next week I wasn't getting much better, honestly. I told myself it's time to see my HIV doc, to check how I'm doing number-wise. The results were not very uplifting. My CD4s are actually still fine, being at 620. But my viral load has risen significantly - 300 000 copies. I was immediately advised by my doctor to go on meds. I said I'm still not sure and that I will wait a bit and let him know.

    Weeks after this visit I still wasn't feeling well. Mainly chest tightness, fatigue and excessive sweating during even less challenging activities. I called my doctor like two weeks ago from my workplace to discuss, what kinds of ARVs he would recommend, if I eventually went on them. He responded, that with my VL as high as it is, he would not recommend 1-pill a day regimen, but 2 to 3 pills a day. I then asked him about monotherapy, Darunavir (yes, I've been reading John's blog and if he would be willing to prescribe me this kind of regimen if I asked for it. He said he sure would, but my health insurance company might decline it cause of my higher viral load. He than mentioned that he has a patient on Darunavir, but solely because of his resistance to any other available treatment.

    I also asked him if it's possible for my VL to spontaneously go down, which he said yes to and that he has personally seen it in some patients. My last question was regarding natural supplements that would help me boost my immunity. He recommended zinc. I immediately went and bought a bottle. I think it helped me significantly and I finally felt healthier and energized for about a week.
    But I think I got worse again these days. Not dramatically, but I have that tight chest, stuffy throat, full nose, nervousness, I sweat easily and I'm also kind of tired.

    The question is, what to do now? Should I try to bring my VL down with some other types of supplements and methods besides zinc? Should I just wait and get my labs done again to see whats going on? Sorry for this post being so long. I'm kind of proud of myself that I finally got to write it. Couldn't find the energy and time to do so in months. It actually took my like two hours to finish this (while watching YouTube videos and eating, of course, haha). Thank you in advance for your responses and for the work you guys do!

    Joey

  2. #2
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    Default Re: New member: CD4 620, VL 300 000

    Hi Joey, and welcome to QA.

    This is going to be a brief response for now, and I may add more after a good night's sleep, but I just wanted to share that no one here can really advise someone in your situation. You will no doubt get some opinions, but my hunch is that you already have a pretty good idea of what you think you should do for yourself. You've been doing your homework and no doubt understand that there is no such thing as a risk-free option. Feeling seriously ill, as you report being with the bronchitis, probably makes you take the news more seriously than if you were healthy. Lots of people who test negative also get bronchitis, but it's really hard to not fall into the trap of assuming the two things are related somehow.

    Your CD4 seems fine, and until the last few years, no doctor, including so-called AIDS specialists would even have considered having you start antiretroviral drugs. A Vl of 60,000 can't be dismissed, but it can hardly be considered very high, either.

    Finally, restoring health and being healthy is an incredibly complex and individual process. Taking supplements without testing for nutritional deficiencies may be a waste of time and money, at best. Having said that, there are some that routine surface here: NAC, ALA and selenium, for example. I'm also a big advocate for high dose intravenous vitamin C, but it is not easy finding practices that really know how best to administer that.

    I hope JeremyB37 and others will add to this discussion, and may we need to come up with a generic written recommendation for people wanting to know what kinds of evaluation to consider, other than routine blood tests. Off the top of my head, these would include nutritional testing, gut biome health (stool analysis), metabolites (organic acid testing), inflammatory markers and probably some sort of stress measure.

    I hope you find some support here to help you reduce your own anxiety and concerns.

    All my best.

  3. #3
    Joey is offline New Member (< 10 posts)
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    Default Re: New member: CD4 620, VL 300 000

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan barnett View Post
    Hi Joey, and welcome to QA.

    This is going to be a brief response for now, and I may add more after a good night's sleep, but I just wanted to share that no one here can really advise someone in your situation. You will no doubt get some opinions, but my hunch is that you already have a pretty good idea of what you think you should do for yourself. You've been doing your homework and no doubt understand that there is no such thing as a risk-free option. Feeling seriously ill, as you report being with the bronchitis, probably makes you take the news more seriously than if you were healthy. Lots of people who test negative also get bronchitis, but it's really hard to not fall into the trap of assuming the two things are related somehow.

    Your CD4 seems fine, and until the last few years, no doctor, including so-called AIDS specialists would even have considered having you start antiretroviral drugs. A Vl of 60,000 can't be dismissed, but it can hardly be considered very high, either.

    Finally, restoring health and being healthy is an incredibly complex and individual process. Taking supplements without testing for nutritional deficiencies may be a waste of time and money, at best. Having said that, there are some that routine surface here: NAC, ALA and selenium, for example. I'm also a big advocate for high dose intravenous vitamin C, but it is not easy finding practices that really know how best to administer that.

    I hope JeremyB37 and others will add to this discussion, and may we need to come up with a generic written recommendation for people wanting to know what kinds of evaluation to consider, other than routine blood tests. Off the top of my head, these would include nutritional testing, gut biome health (stool analysis), metabolites (organic acid testing), inflammatory markers and probably some sort of stress measure.

    I hope you find some support here to help you reduce your own anxiety and concerns.

    All my best.
    Thank you Jonathan for your quick response.
    Regarding my current health issues and bronchitis, yes, I think there is definitely a link between that and my positive HIV test result. I mean, I don't even remember having bronchitis my whole life and feeling not healthy this long is also a very non-standard thing for me and I guess for any regular person out there.

    My current VL is actually not 60,000, that was my first lab result. Last time I went, a month ago, it was 300,000. That of course got me worried.
    My CD4 count was 620 (down from 680).

    What is surprising to me is that my CD4s are still in a normal range and my VL is this high. I thought that if your VL spikes significantly, then it means your CD4s are going down rapidly (except for an acute infection phase?). I sure need to do something to suppress my VL, because, as I have mentioned, I don't feel very healthy for months now. I forgot to add that I have ulcers in the back and top of my mouth almost all the time. When I started with zinc supplementation, they disappeared and I felt healthy for a few days. Now I have a small one forming there again. It's really frustrating.

    I guess I might look into some of the things you have suggested, Jonathan. I just need to figure out where I can get them done and if I even have the motivation and energy to do them. Because, frankly, with my long history of OCD and anxiety issues (also worrying about my health), after overcoming them to a degree, I don't really want to spend my next years monitoring my health this closely and obsessively. I don't want to imply, Jonathan, that what you do in terms of your health is excessive and over the top, not even at slightest. I'm happy and grateful for what you do. I just have a personal issue with this HIV thing in terms that I just refuse to "participate" in it, I just don't want to get too involved with it. This goes more into my personal view and spiritual struggle that I have with my diagnosis, I guess. I somehow cannot "get" it and accept it. I don't understand why I even have to deal with it, if you know what I mean. But I have to, I guess.

    OK, enough rambling, I need to go for now Thanks again for your time, Jonathan.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: New member: CD4 620, VL 300 000

    Hi Joey

    As I am sure you already know, you are in a similar boat to many thousands of other people.
    However, there are significant contradictions in your two posts that you should think about. One is - to be frank with you without any intention of insult or offence - the clinical and scientific unproven impossibility of saying someone 'infected' you. It isn't possible to say that even if you believe (as clearly seem to do) that 'HIV' is a sexually transmissible pathogenic virus. And that is when contradicted by you saying "this HIV thing in terms that I just refuse to "participate" in it, I just don't want to get too involved with it.". If you genuinely believe the first then frankly you should be involved in it and participating in it, as that is the logic of believing you have been 'infected'.
    It is a clinical and scientific fallacy that just testing reactive to the proteins in a 'HIV' test leads - after any given time span - to something (definition-wise amended a dozen times in 30 years) called 'AIDS'. That is a monstrous falsity. t least 70% of people people officially diagnosed 'HIV+' in the USA are not taking compliant drug therapy, and are not turning up in Emergency Rooms with life-threatening immune related illness.
    Until you sort out those contradictions you will be running an endless obstacle race.
    Initially it is your actual clinical health and dealing with that in a conventional way, even if with alternative supplemental aids.
    But the underlying matter that will determine your health will be your emotional state and that is what you need to deal with as a priority. I have, in the last two years alone, personally known and seen two people die as a direct result of persistent emotional distress because of their 'HIV' status, and nothing to do with immune ill-health. There have been 1000s of such tragic cases during the whole period since the late 80s. I personally feel that your need to see this person who you feel 'infected' you is dangerous, corrosive and best to avoid.

    As far as your chest/lung problems you should be insisting on the whole range of standard tests including sputum and even a bronchoscopy to identify any actual bacteria, and lung function tests, and then get appropriate treatment specific to any bacteria found.
    'HIV' drugs don't treat any lung or chest conditions - they are not developed or even prescribed for that.

    As far as vitamin supplements are concerned, unless you first have testing for your current actual state for various nutrients, you are just walking in the dark if you choose to take them without that. They wont help and some, such as selenium, can do you harm.

    I wish you the best of luck.

  5. #5
    Deksman2 is offline Veteran Member (100+ posts)
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    Default Re: New member: CD4 620, VL 300 000

    Hello Joey

    Sorry to hear about your health issues.
    What Jonathan suggested about Intravenuous Vitamin C was quite good... however, problem is that IV Vit C is very expensive when administered in hospitals or by certain health professionals.
    There are clinical trials even on Pubmed that support it, however, doctors can be rather stubborn.

    In case of supplementation, I think you need to look into Vitamin D3.
    And I mean, immediately.
    This is a crucial vitamin/hormone that most people who have been diagnosed as HIV+ seem to be deficient in (actually, deficiency in Vitamin D is chronic around the globe)... plus the RDA for Vitamin D was miscalculated and it was confirmed in recent peer-review clinical trials that RDA for Vitamin D should be closer to 10 000 IU per day (at least).

    You can read that here:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4210929/
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0317122458.htm

    I included the sciencedaily article because it is easier to read for those who might not understand peer-review.
    Anyway... studies also demonstrated that use of up to 40 000 IU of Vitamin D3 daily are NOT harmful.
    You can read so here:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21378345


    In regards to which Vitamin D to get... make sure to get Vitamin D3 (I don't like the premise it is largely made from animals, but Vegan Vitamin D3 from Lichens is still relatively expensive for most people on a longer term basis) in doses of 10 000 IU per capsule.
    Healthy Origins offers an economic packaging of 360 capsules (each being 10 000 IU) at approximately $20 - $30, but liquid forms are said to be better (and since they don't use gelatin - which is actually made from animal skin), then you are eliminating one more problematic compound - just make sure to ingest at least 10 000 IU of D3 daily.

    Also, Vitamin K2 MK-7 can be very important for bones in general.
    MK-7 is the only viable form of K2 that stays in the body longer with demonstrated benefits in clinical trials and was said it has synergistic properties when taken with Vitamin D.

    Your idea to get Zinc supplements was good... however, please make sure to get Zinc Picolinate in the future (unless you already have) since this was the only Zinc supplement which showed differences in clinical trials compared to other forms.

    Jonathan's proposal to use selenium is good, but you don't need supplements for it. You can easily extract more than RDA value from just 4 to 6 large Brazil Nuts.

    Oh and if you are interested, you might want to consider altering your overall eating habits to vegan nutrition.
    Clinical trials state that vegan microbiota (gut bacteria) contains more protective species and such conditions generate far less acidic bile which makes the body inhospitable to bad bacteria and viruses.
    You can read as much here:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4245565/

    It is actually not difficult to go vegan and meet ALL your nutritional needs... sans Vitamin D actually (B12 you can source from Nori/seaweed, though you can also invest in Vegan active B12 supplements in case you cannot gain access to some foods in your area).


    If I were to provide a suggestion, then focus on Vitamin D3 and K2.
    Supplement with 40 000 IU (you can take this large dose once a day) of D3 for 23 days, then lower to 20 000 IU per day for 4 days, and finally reduce again to 10 000 IU daily indefinitely (make sure to take D3 with healthy fats such as coconut or olive oil).
    K2 MK-7 you can supplement with about 100 to 200 mcg per day. It stays in the body for 48 hours or so, so after initial period of 'loading' with it, I think you can reduce taking K2 intake to 100-200mcg every third day for example (it would save you some money in the long run).
    You can also take K2 MK-7 with D3 (no need to space them out).

    There seem to be other clinical trials which were done with antioxidants and correlate their use (such as Vitamin A and E in larger doses) to reduction in Viral load.

    But Joey, your immune system needs a sever boost from Vitamin D... it is exceedingly important nutrient which you cannot afford to be without and which affects virtually every system in your body.

    There's a lot more info online in regards to this... such as using a combination of Turmeric/curcumin with black pepper to increase turmeric's bioavailability by about 2000% (at least that much was detected in clinical trials with Humans).

    As for potentially eradicating HIV... there is limited peer-review behind use of BHT and that it dissolves the lipid coating off viruses (HIV is stated to be lipid coated) allowing the immune system to recognize the virus and eradicate it.
    Effective doses of BHT range from 250 mg to uppermost safe dose of about 1000 mg daily (some people have taken upwards of 1500 mg per day without complications... however, others can experience liver issues past 1000 mg - so should you decide to proceed with that, I would stick to 500mg to 750mg per da of BHT).

    Here is a link to an abstract of a very old clinical trial of BHT used for 'AIDS virus' (as they deemed to call it back then) :
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3649561


    Final decision is up to you... however, what I can say is that I've been using BHT at doses of close to 1000 mg for almost a year now with no problems... usually I just take 350 to 700mg per day though with some food since it is fat soluble).
    It has been apparently recommended to take BHT separately of all other supplements though (so if you do, just give it maybe 2 or 3 hours before you take it).

    I understand that all of this may seem a bit overwhelming, but once you get your head around it, it will actually seem quite simple.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: New member: CD4 620, VL 300 000

    Deksman2

    In my opinion - as someone actually living with 'HIV' for a number of years, and with involvement in it for decades - you are overloading this person with statements and information that sounds dangerously like medical advice. You are not a medical practitioner and you have never stated here any actual experience or studies of practice in health care.
    You have no idea what his vitamin state is of any kind, whether Vit D3 or any other. It is for this person to have that checked FIRST.
    People who have actually researched how to reverse oxidation in people both actually ill with immune related conditions, and those who are reactive to 'HIV proteins but not ill, would be aghast at the manner in which you are posting here. There are certain health conditions in which Vit C in high doses can help, but equally in certain conditions that you fail to mention it is highly OXIDISING and therefore dangerous.
    The Perth Group have studied this area more than any other group of questioning scientists and they would call a 'blanket' statement like yours on Vit C and even high doses of Vit D3 without testing, irresponsible.

    I know full well from your posts here that you are obsessed with Vitamin D3 even though you are correct that in northern Europe 60-70% of the populations are at various times below a reasonable blood plasma level. That is very easy to test for and rectify but you have no evidence, and there is no evidence, that moderate deficiency is in any way as serious as your warnings suggest. Don't paint the studies to show what you already seem to have decided emotionally.

    As someone actually dealing with 'HIV' (which I understand from your posts you are not) I object to the manner of your post to a new person you know nothing about. And I would advise that person to be very cautious before they pay any undue attention to it before they have got their own head straight first and have had some nutrition testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deksman2 View Post
    Hello Joey

    Sorry to hear about your health issues.
    What Jonathan suggested about Intravenuous Vitamin C was quite good... however, problem is that IV Vit C is very expensive when administered in hospitals or by certain health professionals.
    There are clinical trials even on Pubmed that support it, however, doctors can be rather stubborn.

    In case of supplementation, I think you need to look into Vitamin D3.
    And I mean, immediately.
    This is a crucial vitamin/hormone that most people who have been diagnosed as HIV+ seem to be deficient in (actually, deficiency in Vitamin D is chronic around the globe)... plus the RDA for Vitamin D was miscalculated and it was confirmed in recent peer-review clinical trials that RDA for Vitamin D should be closer to 10 000 IU per day (at least).

    You can read that here:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4210929/
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0317122458.htm

    I included the sciencedaily article because it is easier to read for those who might not understand peer-review.
    Anyway... studies also demonstrated that use of up to 40 000 IU of Vitamin D3 daily are NOT harmful.
    You can read so here:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21378345


    In regards to which Vitamin D to get... make sure to get Vitamin D3 (I don't like the premise it is largely made from animals, but Vegan Vitamin D3 from Lichens is still relatively expensive for most people on a longer term basis) in doses of 10 000 IU per capsule.
    Healthy Origins offers an economic packaging of 360 capsules (each being 10 000 IU) at approximately $20 - $30, but liquid forms are said to be better (and since they don't use gelatin - which is actually made from animal skin), then you are eliminating one more problematic compound - just make sure to ingest at least 10 000 IU of D3 daily.

    Also, Vitamin K2 MK-7 can be very important for bones in general.
    MK-7 is the only viable form of K2 that stays in the body longer with demonstrated benefits in clinical trials and was said it has synergistic properties when taken with Vitamin D.

    Your idea to get Zinc supplements was good... however, please make sure to get Zinc Picolinate in the future (unless you already have) since this was the only Zinc supplement which showed differences in clinical trials compared to other forms.

    Jonathan's proposal to use selenium is good, but you don't need supplements for it. You can easily extract more than RDA value from just 4 to 6 large Brazil Nuts.

    Oh and if you are interested, you might want to consider altering your overall eating habits to vegan nutrition.
    Clinical trials state that vegan microbiota (gut bacteria) contains more protective species and such conditions generate far less acidic bile which makes the body inhospitable to bad bacteria and viruses.
    You can read as much here:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4245565/

    It is actually not difficult to go vegan and meet ALL your nutritional needs... sans Vitamin D actually (B12 you can source from Nori/seaweed, though you can also invest in Vegan active B12 supplements in case you cannot gain access to some foods in your area).


    If I were to provide a suggestion, then focus on Vitamin D3 and K2.
    Supplement with 40 000 IU (you can take this large dose once a day) of D3 for 23 days, then lower to 20 000 IU per day for 4 days, and finally reduce again to 10 000 IU daily indefinitely (make sure to take D3 with healthy fats such as coconut or olive oil).
    K2 MK-7 you can supplement with about 100 to 200 mcg per day. It stays in the body for 48 hours or so, so after initial period of 'loading' with it, I think you can reduce taking K2 intake to 100-200mcg every third day for example (it would save you some money in the long run).
    You can also take K2 MK-7 with D3 (no need to space them out).

    There seem to be other clinical trials which were done with antioxidants and correlate their use (such as Vitamin A and E in larger doses) to reduction in Viral load.

    But Joey, your immune system needs a sever boost from Vitamin D... it is exceedingly important nutrient which you cannot afford to be without and which affects virtually every system in your body.

    There's a lot more info online in regards to this... such as using a combination of Turmeric/curcumin with black pepper to increase turmeric's bioavailability by about 2000% (at least that much was detected in clinical trials with Humans).

    As for potentially eradicating HIV... there is limited peer-review behind use of BHT and that it dissolves the lipid coating off viruses (HIV is stated to be lipid coated) allowing the immune system to recognize the virus and eradicate it.
    Effective doses of BHT range from 250 mg to uppermost safe dose of about 1000 mg daily (some people have taken upwards of 1500 mg per day without complications... however, others can experience liver issues past 1000 mg - so should you decide to proceed with that, I would stick to 500mg to 750mg per da of BHT).

    Here is a link to an abstract of a very old clinical trial of BHT used for 'AIDS virus' (as they deemed to call it back then) :
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3649561


    Final decision is up to you... however, what I can say is that I've been using BHT at doses of close to 1000 mg for almost a year now with no problems... usually I just take 350 to 700mg per day though with some food since it is fat soluble).
    It has been apparently recommended to take BHT separately of all other supplements though (so if you do, just give it maybe 2 or 3 hours before you take it).

    I understand that all of this may seem a bit overwhelming, but once you get your head around it, it will actually seem quite simple.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: New member: CD4 620, VL 300 000

    Joey, welcome, and JB37, sorry about the delay in approving your two posts: Easter gatherings monopolized my attention.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: New member: CD4 620, VL 300 000

    Good morning, Joey. Sometimes I wonder if we don't do more harm than good trying to help people reaching out for information here. As you can tell already, you are still going to have to sort through the advice and suggestions and find your own path. I hope you persevere and don't let the passion some of us feel turn you off. It is true that a lot of us have out "pet theories" and advice, including me. Especially me! That doesn't mean any of us have the perfect answer for everyone else's situation.

    As far as I'm concerned, something you yourself note is vitally important here: that the so-called viral load does not always directly correspond with t-cell levels in the peripheral blood. Several of us have observed this and it deserves some top billing as an example of the inconsistencies with the prevalent HIV=AIDS theory, and there are a host of other mind fucks about the orthodox HIV/AIDS teachings, which seem to get changed faster than underwear. That's why we're here, even when we disagree with each other about things, we agree that there are a lot of questions that have not been adequately answered and a lot of answers that can't be trusted.

    Over a period of time (years, probably, certainly not weeks or even months) trendlines of these numbers do seem develop in many of the people who eventually get very sick with serious opportunistic infections, such as PCP or KS. The viral load increases to perhaps 7 digits, while CD4 counts drop to single, or low-double digits. These numbers are so flaky that I can only reference number of digits, not actually ranges! I don't pretend to have the magic formula for exactly what stage of this progression the benefits of ARVs outweigh the risks. I also insist that these two markers are only pieces of a large puzzle and should be kept in context.

    There are people who test positive who never progress, and there are people who get sick and die, even though they have "undetectable" viral load and decent CD4 levels, based on orthodox standards. What should be noted is that there are observable correlations, but not always an absolute direct relationship.

    All of this is, to put it simply, confusing and overwhelming. It requires commitment to study and research; picking up ideas and examining them, and being willing to set them aside, or even discard them.

    Few things you've shared cause me greater concern than your brave admission that you tend to obsess and worry about your health. There is a lot of evidence for our ability as humans to make ourselves sick, and know this too well for myself.

    I don't know what to tell you or advise you. There are drugs that will probably reduce your viral load that have relatively mild risk profiles... especially if you are only taking them for a finite period of time.... say a year or so. The two that seem to be getting the most attention and research are darunavir (Prezista), a protease inhibitor that is usually boosted with a second drug; and dolutegravir (Tivicay), an integrase inhibitor. It may be that achieving the Holy Grail of undetectable will be a big enough relief to you psychologically that it's worth taking a risk with one of these drugs.

    On the other hand, even the orthodox point of view claims that it is extremely low (single or low double-digit) CD4 counts that put people at risk for opportunistic infections, not "viral load". T-cell counts can change rapidly, even at different times of the day. The drop in your own CD4 count from 680 to 620 is, quite literally, meaningless. Tracking test-to-test will drive you nutz. Seriously. If you are going to continue testing, find a charting program, like Excel and track these numbers over time. Also track the CD4 percentage(%), which is considered to be a bit less fickle. Be aware of the risk from "fixating" on the numbers. There is probably some validity to the argument that this alone can be detrimental to health. I know I cannot always control that "gut feeling" I get when I don't get "the numbers" I am hoping for, despite having a good grasp on the rational argument I'm trying to articulate here.

    The CD4 counts you are reporting in your previous post are well within the "normal" range, as well as within the range of normal fluctuation. The fluctuation could also be a result of the bronchitis, and/or your own stressing out. Regardless, until the last souple of years, the mainstream wisdom has been to wait before starting ARVs, due to the many possible adverse and cumulative effects and potential for interactions. The newest recommendation to start treatment immediately for all who test positive is not unanimous and is actually controversial. It will be the one followed by doctors who think multi-class ARV "cocktails" are the only response at their disposal. That you've found a doctor willing to even talk to you about monotherapy is a very good sign, imho.

    I think the most important thing I could tell you right now is that you don't need to make any rash decisions. You have time. Take advantage of that. Find someone who can help you learn how to still your own mind and calm your angst and the obsessions for even an hour or so. I doubt that anything would be more beneficial than that at this point!

    :-)

  9. #9
    Deksman2 is offline Veteran Member (100+ posts)
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    578

    Default Re: New member: CD4 620, VL 300 000

    Quote Originally Posted by JeremyB37 View Post
    Deksman2

    I know full well from your posts here that you are obsessed with Vitamin D3 even though you are correct that in northern Europe 60-70% of the populations are at various times below a reasonable blood plasma level. That is very easy to test for and rectify but you have no evidence, and there is no evidence, that moderate deficiency is in any way as serious as your warnings suggest. Don't paint the studies to show what you already seem to have decided emotionally.
    Obsessive?
    Hardly.
    Just because I provided several clinical trials linking deficient state of D3 to various medical issues, etc. (because quite frankly, there's an overwhelming amount of research on just that topic alone) doesn't make me obsessive.
    It simply means you read a few of my posts before where I noted Vitamin D (btw, I also inputted other things in those posts and linked relevant clinical trials to them) that it is obsessive behavior. It also could be extrapolated that your sample size is ridiculously low and not sufficiently applicable to arrive at a determination you did. In short, one could say you might have 'jumped the gun'.
    Do I emphasize importance of D3?
    Indeed I do, but I am also aware that D3 is not the only thing that impacts one's health, nor is it necessarily a solution to everything. I merely stated to the OP that he should look into it unless he already did (intentionally phrased like that because I do NOT know his vitamin status). I merely stated that D3 is 'usually' found in a state of deficiency in most people (at least according to newest peer-review data)
    I also provided links to some other things (in case you didn't notice).

    As someone actually dealing with 'HIV' (which I understand from your posts you are not) I object to the manner of your post to a new person you know nothing about. And I would advise that person to be very cautious before they pay any undue attention to it before they have got their own head straight first and have had some nutrition testing.
    So, Jonathan Barnett for example can provide a suggestion (advice even) for IV Vitamin C (without linking to ANY relevant clinical trials btw - even though I AM aware there are such clinical trials), and I cannot provide potential advice to look into something which is based on clinical trials that I also provided links to?

    And no, I'm not a qualified medical professional... still, I find it odd that you would mention THAT when I (and many people across these forums) have met various medical professionals who know next to nothing about these subjects, even though they are supposed to.
    I am friends with a GP who is essentially still learning stuff about vitamins and their interactions on the human immune system, biochemistry and epigenetics from me... because we meet from time to time and we talk about things like this, and I usually link to Pubmed for relevant data... and while Vitamin D was at first the highlight of our discussions, we moved on to other subjects since then.

    Point being, if I provided any kind of advice, I did so while using clinical trials/experimental data as verifiable evidence that at least supports the idea in the first place and advise people to read this info (and more) before arriving at any kind of a decision.
    Also, at the very least, if they express interest in it, they would be wise to print out these clinical trials and show them to their doctors and see if they might get official support in trying something like that (in case the drugs are either too expensive or do not yield desired results).

    And finally, how many people have provided their own personal experience without actually linking to any relevant research before on here with good results?

    I find it ridiculous that anyone would shun this kind of piece of information, which is based on the scientific method and 'might' (I repeat, 'might') be of actual relevance (it may not, but at the very least, I think its worthy of further scrutiny).

    People come here to these forums for potential help, and yes, other times for advice.
    Can we provide medical advice?
    Legally, no... we can provide suggestions based on verified data for people to study and come up with their own conclusions.

    Don't even get me started on how many people around here have discussed alteration to their nutrition, etc. which they phrased in a form of an advice as well.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2011
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    Default Re: New member: CD4 620, VL 300 000

    It is not just obsession about Vit D3 (I suggest you go back and re-read your comments when you tell someone whose blood plasma state you don't even know to severely supplement themselves with 40,000 IU a day!!!) but all the other supplements you literally tell them to take will-nilly. There is very little evidence to support high dosing with artificial sources of K2, and there is zero evidence for the medical benefits of BHT.

    It is risky both to health and, more importantly, emotional well-being for someone to go on a supplement spree before they have carried out simple testing.

    Your other random almost throw-away suggestion that they make a decision to go Vegan is just as irresponsible - and I say that as a Vegan myself. Becoming a Vegan safely is a momentous decision and requires a lot of knowledge and preparation first and emotional strength, and your silly comments about the evidence for replacement of lost B vitamins in such a diet from seaweed is a sick joke as it has no evidence to support it, in fact quite the opposite. The studies available show General Practitioners in the UK facing particular health problems with Vegans who refuse to supplement with B vitamins, either through a personal choice or because they believe the nonsense about seaweed.

    The underlying point is that someone new to being diagnosed as 'HIV+', with already stated emotional issues, needs calm guidance around immune health testing - nutrients, gut function, GSK and Glutathione - before they get bombarded with with what looks to me like a pre-ordained template of medical advice from you based on no personal knowledge of dealing with 'HIV' and no reference to the actual individual concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deksman2 View Post
    Obsessive?
    Hardly.
    Just because I provided several clinical trials linking deficient state of D3 to various medical issues, etc. (because quite frankly, there's an overwhelming amount of research on just that topic alone) doesn't make me obsessive.
    It simply means you read a few of my posts before where I noted Vitamin D (btw, I also inputted other things in those posts and linked relevant clinical trials to them) that it is obsessive behavior. It also could be extrapolated that your sample size is ridiculously low and not sufficiently applicable to arrive at a determination you did. In short, one could say you might have 'jumped the gun'.
    Do I emphasize importance of D3?
    Indeed I do, but I am also aware that D3 is not the only thing that impacts one's health, nor is it necessarily a solution to everything. I merely stated to the OP that he should look into it unless he already did (intentionally phrased like that because I do NOT know his vitamin status). I merely stated that D3 is 'usually' found in a state of deficiency in most people (at least according to newest peer-review data)
    I also provided links to some other things (in case you didn't notice).



    So, Jonathan Barnett for example can provide a suggestion (advice even) for IV Vitamin C (without linking to ANY relevant clinical trials btw - even though I AM aware there are such clinical trials), and I cannot provide potential advice to look into something which is based on clinical trials that I also provided links to?

    And no, I'm not a qualified medical professional... still, I find it odd that you would mention THAT when I (and many people across these forums) have met various medical professionals who know next to nothing about these subjects, even though they are supposed to.
    I am friends with a GP who is essentially still learning stuff about vitamins and their interactions on the human immune system, biochemistry and epigenetics from me... because we meet from time to time and we talk about things like this, and I usually link to Pubmed for relevant data... and while Vitamin D was at first the highlight of our discussions, we moved on to other subjects since then.

    Point being, if I provided any kind of advice, I did so while using clinical trials/experimental data as verifiable evidence that at least supports the idea in the first place and advise people to read this info (and more) before arriving at any kind of a decision.
    Also, at the very least, if they express interest in it, they would be wise to print out these clinical trials and show them to their doctors and see if they might get official support in trying something like that (in case the drugs are either too expensive or do not yield desired results).

    And finally, how many people have provided their own personal experience without actually linking to any relevant research before on here with good results?

    I find it ridiculous that anyone would shun this kind of piece of information, which is based on the scientific method and 'might' (I repeat, 'might') be of actual relevance (it may not, but at the very least, I think its worthy of further scrutiny).

    People come here to these forums for potential help, and yes, other times for advice.
    Can we provide medical advice?
    Legally, no... we can provide suggestions based on verified data for people to study and come up with their own conclusions.

    Don't even get me started on how many people around here have discussed alteration to their nutrition, etc. which they phrased in a form of an advice as well.

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