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View Full Version : just pondering... (ame-a19)



msn_hypnotist
February 15th, 2002, 02:15 PM
<TABLE ><TR><TD><FONT size=2><DIV> <DIV>Hey everybody,</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>I was just sitting here thinking...</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Everybody in ARC, Alive and Well and all other affiliated groups are doing a wonderful job getting the word out, and although they ve turned many views around and have set up a wonderful base to get the word out, there are still too many people wanting to stay quiet about the AIDs myth despite knowing better.&nbsp; Now, I m not talking about the doctors and scientists...I m talking about the people walking the street too shy and timid&nbsp;&nbsp;to speak about the truth.&nbsp; </DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Anyhow, I just wanted to get a better understanding of why people are holding back, staying quiet or backing down...Surely there are some lurkers on this board that can give me some insight as to why they re choosing to stay quiet.&nbsp; With the number of hits we re getting on the ARC website, enrollment to the board is relatively low and the number of people participating is as low.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Is this not a big enough issue for you to speak up?&nbsp; Are you too worried about other s&nbsp;opinions despite having the more than enough facts to question the AIDs hypothesis?&nbsp; &nbsp;I m not being pejorative, I just want to figure out a way to get more commitments out there.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Thanks for listening,</DIV> <DIV>Matt</DIV> <DIV><A target=_top href="http://www.hypnosisandfitness.com/">WWW.hypnosisandfitness.com</A></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE>

msn_jerry
February 16th, 2002, 12:55 AM
<TABLE ><TR><TD><FONT size=2>Hi Matt,<br><br>[Apparently, my Email input loses its paragraph breaks after I send the <br>message. Sorry - I&#39;ll try to figure out what&#39;s causing this and correct <br>it.]<br><br>This is really a great question. I have some unformulated ideas of why <br>&quot;knowers&quot; remain silent, but for now I will offer my simple personal <br>experiences.<br><br>Speaking out on this has resulted in extremely stressful situations for <br>me, at a time when I&#39;m just learning how to manage my stress otherwise. <br>I have tried to discuss this with family members and, despite (or <br>because of???!!!) the fact that one of our family has already died of <br>&quot;AIDS&quot;, I get resistance bordering on hostility. It must be my <br>approach, but likely it is my own fears of not being able to remain the <br>quiet baby of the family anymore and having to take responsibility for <br>the truth. My brother-in-law is in biotech sales and I greatly respect <br>his knowledge and experience, so I can&#39;t yet explain why he isn&#39;t <br>stunned after I&#39;ve given him a couple weeks to read Duesberg&#39;s <br>&quot;Inventing the AIDS Virus&quot;. His position is roughly that HIV is a <br>cofactor in causing AIDS.<br><br>I&#39;ve also tried with my closest friends. My closest gay friend got <br>really hostile (used to work for APLA), and other gay friends have <br>plenty of ways to basically say &quot;You can&#39;t go against the whole medical <br>industry just because someone bla bla bla&quot;. Amazingly, AIDS is all but <br>off the radar of some of my best straight friends. They don&#39;t pay <br>attention to it and don&#39;t care to go into it in as much detail as is <br>required to get at the issues we need to look at to do it right. I can <br>understand that, but I just thought AIDS in the 80s was such a huge <br>scary thing for everyone, it just blows me away how some people are so <br>out of it.<br><br>I&#39;m used to influencing people on a friendly one-on-one basis, if that <br>makes any sense. But I have had almost zero success with alternate <br>HIV/AIDS perspectives using my friendly methods. So, either I&#39;ve gotten <br>good at influencing people in ways that don&#39;t matter, or something much <br>bigger is happening to me that I can&#39;t yet describe with much clarity. <br>I mean, why wouldn&#39;t people who think I&#39;m smart listen to me about <br>something like this? Maybe that&#39;s a problem of my attitude.<br><br>I have also participated in discussions of these issues pretty <br>extensively on Znet, a progressive/radical community concerned with <br>social change. That has been rather frustrating, because, while there <br>has been lots of stimulating discussion over a few years now, the big <br>commentary writers still base all their great economic and political <br>analyses in their AIDS-related stories on the assumptions we are trying <br>to debunk. Not that anyone writes about AIDS very often, but whenever <br>they do, the alternate ideas get treated with suspicion if not scorn. <br>We argue and argue and present all this information and perspective, and <br>the HIV=AIDS=death/pandemic cheerleaders still always get the biggest <br>megaphone and get to call people like Mbeki deranged or whatever. Znet <br>is a community of brilliant, thoughtful, progressive and radical <br>thinkers, and I continue to participate there and pay my dues, but that <br>is why I am very disappointed that the mainstream thinking is de facto <br>the most acceptable there. We did manage to add a Health forum there, <br>so there has been some progress. But for the most part, the same people <br>participate there - not the general community. Sound familiar?<br><br>So I would say that, with regard to the radical progressive community, <br>the argument usually comes down to not being able to demonstrate how <br>markets - yes, *markets* - can and do corrupt the scientific peer-review <br>process. That&#39;s such an abstract idea, I don&#39;t even know where to begin <br>tackling it in a systematic way. But I&#39;ve tried, by showing how <br>scientific journals are filled with glossy ads for all sorts of highly <br>technical equipment, but still have your typical marketing jingles, like <br>you can get rid of stains this easy, bla bla bla. I was actually kind <br>of stunned to find that kind of stuff in scientific journals, like there <br>was this alternate commercial world, a parallel universe in which you <br>don&#39;t go koo koo for cocoa puffs, but go koo koo for the latest <br>centrifuge. Weird.<br><br>Anyway, I&#39;m going on and on... To borrow some ideas from Znet, what we <br>probably need is some vision and strategy. What sort of future do we <br>want? Surely not one in which HIV causes AIDS, but what else about the <br>world must change if no one&#39;s going to accept that without being tempted <br>to go back to wrong thinking? I think if we take a careful look at the <br>issues we&#39;re used to looking at, we&#39;ll see how they immediately relate <br>to major institutional structures in our society, like *advertising*. <br>Not that that should discourage anyone, but that we should prepare <br>ourselves to pull a whole bunch of other issues into our worlds, and it <br>is a good idea to look carefully at the world to see what institutions <br>and systems we are necessarily going to have to change for the better. <br>That is where strategy comes in, but I think the core strategy, at least <br>for myself, is to continue to reacquaint myself with the information, <br>like in Christine&#39;s book and Duesberg&#39;s book. But we also simply need <br>to continue the tough job of *speaking* this information, somehow. I <br>find it hard to trust my speech to my recall of technical information of <br>the sort we&#39;re handling. Like you say, it is a commitment - one each of <br>us can make in various ways. How to measure that commitment, like <br>viewing participation here, could be a topic for next time...<br><br>Jerry Kelly<br>ruairi@mac.com<br><br></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE>

msn_DissidentSaint
February 16th, 2002, 05:21 PM
<TABLE ><TR><TD><FONT size=2><DIV>Jerry and Matt,</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences in raising awareness of the myth. It seems almost redundant to try to convince someone not to believe something. Yet we are not just trying to offer them the option of saying no to the infectious misconception, but yes to their lives and loves, yes to health and wellness. </DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>I seem to reach many people when I make these points clearly. Big rant commencing...</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Linking the AIDS Dissident movement to the Alternative&nbsp;Health movement, which already represents alternative paradigms to the dominant, conventional medical model. Alternative Medicine has long questioned the virus/germ theory and Dissident Scientists or the Dissident Scientific is just confirming what Alternative Medicine&nbsp;has long been saying. Then talk about the mismanaged epidemics which were later determined to be misdiagnosed endemics. Scurvy, Maternal Fever, even Homosexuality was thought a mental disorder until 1974. Dr. Evelyn Hooker was a Dissident Scientist who also challenged the dominant, conventional model. Galileo was a Dissident. And then, explain how these unresolved conflicts in research methodologies and ideologies affects the progress in&nbsp;our gained knowledge about all areas of health&nbsp;since the dominant, conventional model refuses to fund thinking outside the virus/germ box. And then talk about lack of access to primary and comprehensive alternative health care for those who choose it. Often activists talk about health care-- and it is only pharmaceutically based. This disempowers health care freedom and access to care. </DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>I challenge everyone to take action within the context of their influence and control-- that we are all responsable collectively. We are either part of the problem or solution. For example, ARC has suggested people contact businesses who display AIDS Walk or other fundraising paraphenalia in their windows. You can say that you are an&nbsp;AIDS Dissident Scientific and Alternative Health&nbsp;Care&nbsp;Consumer Advocate. Always introduce yourself and give&nbsp;your name.&nbsp;Avoid conspiratorialist rhetoric--&nbsp;words like invented [instead use helped create the environment for &nbsp;or lies [instead use myth or&nbsp; misconception ]&nbsp;Anyway, then explain that the said AIDS organization opposes a free exchange and&nbsp;exploration of all valid scientific&nbsp;and medical approaches, thereby&nbsp;not informing consent of consumers as partners in health care decision-making.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Remember it is a mindset we are&nbsp;fighting.&nbsp;People will begin to suspect your words if you claim some sort of conspiracy and will be&nbsp;listening closely to wording. Also, don t sell or tout any products or services when you explain these concepts. They&nbsp;will also be waiting to hear that. If they think you sound pretty reasonable and have no ulterior motive, you will get somewhere with a certain percentage of people.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>It takes practise, just like when&nbsp;one comes out as gay.[Don t know if you are, but if you were, you could use that experience].&nbsp;&nbsp;Or if you have something about yourself that is non-normative. As for friends, you can introduce concepts more slowly than if you are speaking to someone once. Friends are tricky in this regard. They might feel they can t fully disagree with you, so don t pressure them. Just occasionally put your two cents in when the subject arises and expand a little at a time-- line upon line, so to speak.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Outreach in front of testing sites, when they are scheduled for testing is a good place. Just carry some literature or Christine s Book and say something benign like, "Have you considered another view about HIV/AIDS? They will have to either say, "no"[in which case you say "well, I am sharing some important information..."&nbsp;or "yes"[more likely commited apologists-- but then follow up with, what have you heard?], or they will say, "not interested."[because they are busy or are really not interested. If they stop to talk for a second or you can walk with them without appearing like your following them to closely or invading their space, ask a follow up question].</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Ask them if they have any questions about what AIDS Dissidents are saying or about. Or have some handy facts. These will be highly qualified contacts for which AIDS, Inc. has paid dearly in advertising, outreach, etc. And when they take your information and go into the testing site, or talk to you-- they will ask the people inside the AIDS organization which may cause overeaction, such as "they re crazy" or maybe a more detailed discussion about something you ve said. If you were nt conspiratorialist, they may compare your reasonableness to the AIDS professionals and think again. If you only leave them with a website, that s something.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Kelly Jon Landis</DIV></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE>

msn_hypnotist
February 17th, 2002, 10:16 AM
<TABLE ><TR><TD><FONT size=2><DIV>Hi Jerry,</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&lt;&lt;"you can t go against the whole medical industry just because someone bla bla bla"&gt;&gt;<BR></DIV> <DIV>Unfortunately, your friend s blind faith refelects the limited parameters of our society.&nbsp; Too many times we allow scientists and media to spew thier ideologies deep into our subconscious minds us without us even questioning it.&nbsp; So how do we counter the above statement?&nbsp; Well, I m one to believe since we can t convince the above with facts unless we get it into the media...we have to say next and move on.&nbsp; However, don t think your words have fallen on deaf ears.&nbsp; You may just have planted a "seed" that may grow&nbsp;slowly.&nbsp; Especially if he hears confirming evidence&nbsp;from the media.&nbsp; </DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&lt;&lt;Amazingly, AIDS is all but off the radar of some of my best straight freinds.&nbsp; They don t pay attention&nbsp;to it and don t care to go into it in as much detail as is required to get at the issues we need to look at to do it right...I just thoughtAIDSin the 80s was such a huge scary thing for everyone, it just blows me away how some people are so out of it"&gt;&gt;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>True...but, let s take a look from&nbsp;your freinds &nbsp;point of view...once the AIDs myth never really got beyond the gay community after the 80 s that allowed them to feel a sense of relief.&nbsp; And too many times, unless it s "close to home" we really don t care.&nbsp; But, I think this group can still be reached since they re really "on the fence."&nbsp; We just have to get to them emotionally involved.&nbsp; Since just about everybody s scared of cancer, I like to mention the amount of money that can be diverted toward cancer "just in case" AIDS is a myth.&nbsp; That usually sways some people to at least listen to what I ve got to say as long as I m not confrontational.&nbsp; </DIV> <DIV><BR>You bring up some other wonderful thoughts in your post (as does Kelly) and I d go more into it, but I m going out :-)...so I have to get ready.<BR></DIV> <DIV>Lastly, I d like to offer a free self-hypnosis course to help everyone on this board to keep up thier energies and keep their stress levels down.&nbsp; I can t do it on the next scheduled course but I will plan one at the end of April if anyone is interested.&nbsp; I hope no-one takes this as a form of advertisement...as it s coming from my heart.&nbsp; I know how stressful it can be and sometimes disappointing&nbsp;when we encounter strong opposing view points, and I d like to offer my services to keep up the fight.</DIV> <DIV>Just e-mail me if your e interested.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Matt</DIV> <DIV><A target=_top href="http://www.hypnosisandfitness.com">www.hypnosisandfitness.com</A></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE>