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G Man
September 22nd, 2009, 06:23 AM
I think this is why Linda and others have left. I know it too, from experience. When I was very sick, all I wanted to do was whatever it took to get better. So you turn to hospitals and doctors, antibiotics, it's all most of us know.

I am in the process of trying to find a wholistic doctor BEFORE I get sick, so I have someone to turn to when and if I actually do. Not from HIV, just in general. We all get sick and when we do we get vulnerable. I don't like that feeling.

kstokely2
September 22nd, 2009, 02:17 PM
Well said GMan. I agree, having a doctor that you can trust in very important.
One that will treat you without the HIV sunglasses.
I have found sometimes that when you are deemed "positive", you are almost 'not allowed' to be sick, ever. As if the rest of the entire population may get sick from time to time, but not us. Or else it's AIDS.
It's such bullshit.
Keeping a very healthy "terrain" will prevent most illness, most of the time. But, sometimes we just don't feel well.
That's okay, we're still human.

I'm so sorry to see some people leave due to the fear and terror this scandal has created.

resistanceisfruitful
September 22nd, 2009, 02:44 PM
I don't disagree with anything posted here, but I thought Linda "left" (I hope you're still lurking, Linda) because she felt the board would not allow her here if she chose to go back on ARVs, even for a brief period of time and that sharing such heresy would not be tolerated here.

While it would be unreasonable to expect much support for such a decision from AME members, I don't see how it would harm anyone else here for her to stay and let us know how her approach works.

I, for one, am curious and anxious to know what happens to Linda and I am not afraid to learn from her experience. She seems to have a lot of information and is able to make a pretty informed choice. That doesn't mean it's necessarily the "right" one or the best one.

One of my closest friends, who has been "poz" since the early 80s and has taken nearly every cocktail there is and is still taking ARVs will be visiting this weekend. We rarely discuss our differences, though I have a thousand questions and may try again. He looks and acts as healthy as anyone I know. It is anomalies like his experience that help keep me humble about what I believe, think and advocate.

(Note to the AIDStruthers who lurk here: let me add that I also have dozens of friends who took ARVs and are now dead. I'm extremely grateful that after 30 years, I have at least one friend who has survived.)

T.rex
September 22nd, 2009, 04:33 PM
I think it works both ways... Sick people get scared, and scared people get sick.

regardless, i will not presume to walk in the path of another person. Each person has the right to take care of themselves how they see fit. i don't judge Linda or anybody. We're all trying to figure this out together, and her point of view is just as useful here for us to make our own determinations, as anyone else.

G Man
September 22nd, 2009, 04:40 PM
I don't judge her at all. I actually understand why she's going back on the drugs. It must be horrible to be sick all the time and try alternative methods and have nothing really work. If I were in her shoes, I'm not sure that I wouldn't contemplate doing the same thing. BUT, since I've never been on ARV's, I feel I have a leg up on those who have done them in the past. I think the prior use of the drugs is a factor in future health, even if you have stopped them for a time. So all in all, I don't think I would start on the drugs even if I was very sick. I just don't think they are the answer, I think they are the problem. Just my personal opinion.

HansSelyeWasCorrect
September 23rd, 2009, 09:09 PM
When I was wasting away, I never got frightened, for whatever reason, but I did do something that I now regret, which was what I call the "yo-yo process." I would try all different kinds of approaches, but never give any one of them enough time to work. I would also combine things that I now realize should not have been. It was only when I decided to go with large doses of stomach acid (rather than the small amount in the enzyme supplements I tried) that things started to improve, but it took a few months, not days or weeks.

With regard to the "medicine," who knows what effects will occur? There are so many factors that have never been controlled for that it's a waste of time to do anything more than note how bad the side effects appear to be. Rather, I would focus on the biochemical situation. Get your levels of all kinds of molecules tested and then determine what you should try. For example, in general, "AIDS patients" have low levels of IL-2, whereas in the 80s, "chronic fatigue syndrome" patients had high levels. The reason appears to be excess antigenic exposure ("AIDS") as opposed to a hypersensitivity reaction to a common virus, which occurred due to too much biochemical activity (some had toxic exposures while others engaged in a great deal of strenuous exercise). Also, I'd add that the dietary changes that occurred in the early 60s made many more people susceptible than would have been the case on a non-starvation peasant diet from the early 1800s, for instance.

moonchild493
September 24th, 2009, 09:28 PM
Awww, guys, I'm very touched by many of your comments. I appreciate your understanding, and have obviously been doing a bit of lurking. It happens that I have not recovered from that mysterious bout of diarrhea and have been feeling extremely exhausted. I was also noticing that the very things that happened the frist time I went off the drugs were starting to happen again. This is mostly allergy-type symptoms, like excessive mucus, especially after eating or even drinking. It can at times cause gagging and even some regurgitation. It's extremely unpleasant, and the course it took before was very dire. It doesn't mean it would necessarily go the same way again, but I am indeed scared while trying to remain calm and objective.

I do not discount the idea that having been on ARVs may dispose me to ill health, possibly forever. I fear there is little I can do about that now except be vigilant and do what I feel works. Rest assured that I will continue in my natural health regimen and maybe go a few steps farther. I am still convinced that this is probably something allergic and/or autoimmune and that somehow the drugs work to alleviate this. I have no idea why beyond the theory that the drugs suppress something unhealthy in my immune system. Unfortunately, my attempts to go it alone have not been successful, and I will always be vigilant for signs that the drugs are harming me.

My real problem with reading the posts here (other than trying to deal with some unwelcome advice, and not from any of you here on this thread). is that it is very hard to read over and over about the "toxic" drugs and their horrible effects. I don't doubt the truth of this at all, but I have to do what feels right for me right now.

So I will read a bit here and if I feel I have anything to contribute, I will. I won't promise to answer anyone overtly critical, and I won't be mocked for my decisions. That said, I am glad if I can contribute in some small way to the understanding of those of us forced into unpopular (even with ourselves!) decisions. I am glad my input is welcome.

With warmest regards,

Linda

resistanceisfruitful
September 24th, 2009, 10:44 PM
Glad to see you're still here, Linda. Lurk or speak out... the choice is yours, just as any medical decisions.

Since I haven't seen a definition of what a dissident is posted on AME I assume it is self-defined.

cdm
September 24th, 2009, 11:08 PM
Linda very glad "to see you around" .... it is a matter of time the diarrhea to subside -- everything settles down, even with wrong prescriptions . Time is the biggest healer of all.
The weather of the autumn favors such conditions. Be patient. Your organism cleanses something.
Last weekend I was traveling by car. In the middle of nowhere my gut had a hard time. A coca cola helped me. Grateful to the american nation :)

moonchild493
September 24th, 2009, 11:17 PM
Thanks, cdm. The diarrhea has long since subsided -- it's the exhaustion that's hanging on. Oh, for the days when coca cola had regular sugar in it! That HFCS will kill ya! But I remember the days when coca cola syrup was an actual prescription for an upset tummy. So much was simpler then!

Linda

G Man
September 25th, 2009, 12:27 AM
Linda,

You are a brave person. We are all brave here. Look, we are up against a huge multi-billion dollar establishment. Some of our ideas are not popular, because they are scary to people. I'm sure some people would throw rocks at us or worse if they saw us. But we do it anyway, because we know it's the right thing to do.

We are thinkers, and that is a true blessing. 90+% are not, they just go along with the establishment and don't question. Whether you decide to go back on ARV's or not isn't the point. The point is you think and you question, and that is GOOD. I consider myself blessed to have found this group. Everyone brings something different to the table, and the support I have received from this group is truly awesome. Thank you for being a huge part of that, and I hope you continue to post from time to time.

moonchild493
September 25th, 2009, 09:19 AM
Thanks, G. I hope that I will always be brave enough to question and to try alternatives to the status quo. I know that much, even most, of what is generally accepted by most people is patently false, and I really want to get at the truth. It's a crazy world we live in. I appreciate the support.

Linda

BuffaloBoy
September 25th, 2009, 10:37 AM
Linda, I just wanted to say that I can really empathise with what you're going through. I've never taken ARVs, and have always resisted the idea, for the usual dissident reasons, and yet, here I am in bed with my THIRD bout of strep pneumonia in just under 18 months.

The first time I came down with it I was in hospital for a week being fed anti-bios by IV and it took me months to recover. I'm currently not working as I do contract work that has dried up in the recession, but I fear that even if I could find a job, that I might not actually be well enough to do it. I've been given anti-bios again and mercifully, I'm beginning to not feel so sick, but I can't help but wonder how many more bouts of pneumonia my body - and spirit - can endure before it finally kills me.

Every fibre in my being has always told me not to take HIV medication, but I feel as if I'm backed into a corner now. I want to be able to resume my life - to work, and see friends - rather than spend so much time at home in bed recovering from illness. So there's now a part of me that is beginning to wonder whether the best option is to start combination therapy and see what happens. It's not something that I want to do, but I certainly don't want my life to continue as it is because, frankly it's not a life that's really worth living right now. If ARVs help me to move forward then is that really such a bad thing?

When you're not sick it's very easy to rail against HIV medications and think of them as 'poisons' that kill - I know, because I've done it myself. But when your life seems to slipping away through one bout of illness after another, then perhaps they are worth re-considering as a last resort, when other 'alternative' treatments have failed.

I have to say, that in all my dissident years, I've always felt that it was a personal choice and would never criticise those people who took a more a conventional path. I think most people do what they think is best in their circumstances and I would never want to judge that, whether I agree with their choices or not.

So Linda, I hope that whatever you end up doing works out for you. I will certainly be interested in hearing how things go when you re-start the ARVs as, in truth, I'm terrified of going on them, so any contribution you make will certainly make a difference - for good or ill- to me.

moonchild493
September 25th, 2009, 04:57 PM
Thanks, BuffaloBoy. I can see you are facing the same kind of dilemma I was. My chiropractor hit a nerve when she said that you have to get yourself back on a level playing field (or words to that effect) before you can go on. I don't know how else to do that which I haven't already tried to no avail. I am actually back on Atripla for a week now. You know it's bad when the bag boy at the local grocery store says you look exhausted! This just happened Wednesday. I find if I go out for a few hours during the day, I become almost comatose and wind up sleeping through dinner and then shortly through the whole night. Not much of a life, huh? I think things are beginning to turn around in just the last day or so. I seem to have a bit more energy and there hasn't been any inappropriate sleeping despite dinner out Wednesday night.

I can't say whether ARVs would help you or not. It seems to be such an individual thing. I can only say that I have never had any side effects beyond a possible mild rash and that last time I went back on I began getting better almost immediately, like within a week or so. You know that you have to weigh the pros and cons and decide if you think your quality of life can be improved. It sounds like it's not much now, similar to the way mine has been. I was doing fairly well till the mysterious 10 day or so bout of diarrhea that left me in this exhausted state, but I could feel the same things starting to happen that did last time -- strange increase in mucus that gets nasty while and after eating. This is why I suspect something allergic or autoimmune. Then I end up with respiratory difficulties that last time fell just short of pneumonia, and on and on.

So I'm back on the drugs. I suspect I had not built up my immune system enough before I quit a few months ago, since this is happening a lot sooner this time. Going on ARVs does not mean you're necessarily stuck for life. If your quality of life is becoming unbearable, it might be worth seeing how you tolerate them and how they make you feel. Even Matt Irwin (read his papers at virusmyth if you haven't already) is not opposed to a trial of ARVs.

I hope I have been of some little help and have not confused you further! I will post from time to time and update my condition, as I feel this could be helpful to those in similar situations.

Take care of yourself and let us know what you do.

Linda

jee
September 25th, 2009, 11:04 PM
What a tragedy, dissidents are falling left and right, all the dissident scientific literature, theory, Ph.D's, nothing can save us, and these ARV's will definitely get us eventually, some sooner than others, and only a handful known (and presumably others - though unknown) are considered to be totally unaffected by whatever this illness is.

In the midst of all this, what do you tell someone, like me, that even the ARV's are not going to help me, as they really harmed me much more than helped me the last time I was on them. Linda is lucky in that regard that she does feel better on them. Only God knows what this illness is and how deadly and fatal it is. Nor that I can work, nor have insurance. When it rains, it pours, When it pours, it's a biblical flood and nothing survives. For me, really, there is no way out and with major symptoms that have increased, I'm just waiting for the final moment to arrive.

3 rounds of pnuemonia is very serious. What do your numbers say? What a scare it would be to get the numbers tested. Another mystery is that why are these meds so addictive? Andrew Maniotis, Duesberg, Culshaw, Rasnick etc. etc. have been proven wrong again and again by field experiences, yet they are trying to save their reputation by holding on to failed theories. That does make me little mad.

T.rex
September 25th, 2009, 11:15 PM
For me, really, there is no way out... I'm just waiting for the final moment to arrive.


I don't presume to walk in your shoes, but with that attitude, its impossible for your condition to be anything other than what it is, currently. How about try living, enjoying life, going back to work...?

G Man
September 25th, 2009, 11:37 PM
What a tragedy, dissidents are falling left and right

Andrew Maniotis, Duesberg, Culshaw, Rasnick etc. etc. have been proven wrong again and again by field experiences, yet they are trying to save their reputation by holding on to failed theories. That does make me little mad.

Where is that coming from? I don't see anyone falling left and right, if anything I see more stuff coming to light that the HIV/AIDS establishment is in trouble & running scared and the dissidents were right all along. :confused:

BuffaloBoy
September 25th, 2009, 11:56 PM
The thing is, I think the medical establishment have got it wrong, or at least, partially wrong. And I also think the same is true for dissidents too. I don't think HIV is black and white and unfortunately, both camps have a tendency to see it in those terms.

My own view is that it's HIV plus something else, that makes people fall ill. But the spotlight has been solely on HIV for so long, that no one bothers to look at anything else on the stage. It could well be that HIV is (relatively) harmless, but in concert with whatever else is playing a part in this syndrome, it becomes deadly for a large number of people. Perhaps, it's this 'something else' that the long term non progressors lack, in spite of having detectable levels of HIV in their blood.

So that is why I'm drawn to dissent when it comes to HIV, But given that I'm now on my third hit of pneumonia and with a CD4 count of 124, I have to say that I'm becoming quite scared. Pneumonia wears your body down even if you're negative and completely healthy and can still kill if antibiotics are not administered quickly enough. Do I want to risk an ever weakening immune system worn down by persistent bouts of pneumonia, followed by lengthy courses of antibiotics? If there was any way out of this other starting ARVs then, believe me, I'd be only too happy to try, but I don't think there is.
But if anyone else has suffered numerous bouts of pneumonia and then managed to shake it off for good, then please let me know how you achieved this.

G Man
September 26th, 2009, 12:06 AM
The problem here is, we only hear about it when people are sick. There are plenty here who are not, but they don't tend to go around posting about how great they feel. When people post their illnesses, it gives a false illusion that the scale is tipping against this movement.

That being said, I hope the ones who are ill here can find whatever it is they need to get well.

jee
September 26th, 2009, 12:14 AM
A lot of those folks have claimed that hiv does not exist or is harmless (how can you have such a wide discrepancy), Perth Group lady is not even a Ph.D or a scientist, besides she has left the debate open, others have merely theorized on what is the real status with hiv, and how it is not a causative factor but corelative factor.

This forum Gman if you haven't noticed is already down to a very few people who post here regularly, and of those, some of us are getting real sick. Illnesses that are directly tied to weakened immune system are wreaking havoc on our bodies. Nobody can explain why in the presence or even absence of hiv.

Every death is explained away by this or that. Not that people are not dying who are taking meds but there appear to be a good number who are claiming to live relatively normal lives on the meds. I haven't had a normal single day in about half a dozen years. While I was struggling I was not at the edge until I took alternative homeopathic treatment. God knows what it did to me, I just went downhill very quickly.

T.Rex, it is indeed very difficult to go out, have fun, smile when you are in constant pain, fatigue, no energy, with each day bringing a new symptom, and nothing that could really help you. I understand the notion of keep your chin up even in the darkest days but cmon, anybody who is seriously sick and can barely breathe, let alone be jumping around with joy.

G Man
September 26th, 2009, 12:42 AM
Jee,

I would argue that the few people on this forum is not representative of the world population. And there is a WHOLE LOT more to this than "The Perth Group Lady". There are so many things that made me become and remain a dissident. I'm sorry for your illness, but I still believe from all the evidence I've seen (and personal experience!) that HIV does not cause AIDS. In fact, I am 100% convinced of it.

T.rex
September 26th, 2009, 01:27 AM
T.Rex, it is indeed very difficult to go out, have fun, smile when you are in constant pain, fatigue, no energy, with each day bringing a new symptom, and nothing that could really help you. I understand the notion of keep your chin up even in the darkest days but cmon, anybody who is seriously sick and can barely breathe, let alone be jumping around with joy.

jee, i don't doubt that your body is experiencing these very real things, but the question is, 'why'? HIV is supposedly dangerous because it makes your body unable to fight off disease.... Why would an immune suppression disease have anything to do with fatigue, lack of energy, or breathing?

Yes, fatigue is an HIV symptom, though i don't see it as a cause and effect relationship. I believe its because poz people are depressed, and the depression, itself, surps the energy.

When i was first diagnosed, i was depressed... I had no energy. I was unconsciously taking very shallow breaths, which in turn, didn't give oxygen to my body or promote bloodflow, which in turn makes the body fatigued even more. But make no mistake... even if hiv is real and is immune suppressive, that should have nothing to do with my levels of energy or breathing.

When it finally occured to me that my scary symptoms had nothing to do with immune suppression, i took steps to correct it... I'd go hiking, and consciously take huge deep breaths. This promoted oxygen and blood thru the body, which increased the energy.

resistanceisfruitful
September 26th, 2009, 03:14 AM
jee,

I'm sorry, but your latest post is just a crock of unsubstantiated comments, and if there was a Pity Potty section to move it to, I would. I don't mean to be unkind, but I think you need to talk to someone about your present state of mind. You sound extremely depressed.



A lot of those folks have claimed that hiv does not exist or is harmless (how can you have such a wide discrepancy), Perth Group lady is not even a Ph.D or a scientist, besides she has left the debate open, others have merely theorized on what is the real status with hiv, and how it is not a causative factor but corelative factor.

This forum Gman if you haven't noticed is already down to a very few people who post here regularly, and of those, some of us are getting real sick. Illnesses that are directly tied to weakened immune system are wreaking havoc on our bodies. Nobody can explain why in the presence or even absence of hiv.

Every death is explained away by this or that. Not that people are not dying who are taking meds but there appear to be a good number who are claiming to live relatively normal lives on the meds. I haven't had a normal single day in about half a dozen years. While I was struggling I was not at the edge until I took alternative homeopathic treatment. God knows what it did to me, I just went downhill very quickly.

T.Rex, it is indeed very difficult to go out, have fun, smile when you are in constant pain, fatigue, no energy, with each day bringing a new symptom, and nothing that could really help you. I understand the notion of keep your chin up even in the darkest days but cmon, anybody who is seriously sick and can barely breathe, let alone be jumping around with joy.

yangming
September 26th, 2009, 09:36 AM
Jee, you said:"This forum Gman if you haven't noticed is already down to a very few people who post here regularly". Many peoples just come here to look,not to post anything... as i did for many years. And by the way I FEEL GOOD ! so many peoples sick around me ...
Linda wish you the best in your way to health.

moonchild493
September 26th, 2009, 11:54 AM
Thank you, yangming. And thank you, G Man for starting this thread. I feel it is very relevant to many people, including untold numbers who read but rarely or never post. I know they're there because once in a while I get an email from someone either searching for help or empathizing with me and recounting similar experiences. I just got one the other day from Austria.

I don't know what we can do to help jee. Part of me wants to give him a big hug and say it'll be alright, and part of me wants to shake him and tell him to wake up. I feel that anyone whose health regimen is not only not helping but seems to be harming needs to be actively searching for something, anything that might work better.

I was thinking that I didn't agree with the theory (T. rex, was it?) that depression plays a key role in developing these illnesses, but then I remembered that my first illness came close on the heels of a devastating breakup. I don't think it caused the respiratory difficulties, but I have little doubt it exacerbated it. I don't know if we will ever know exactly what causes us to become ill, but I'm sure we can't discount the ever-increasing toxicity of the world we live in. Chemicals, poisons, hormones -- you name it. I know I was less careful with toxic, caustic grill cleaner when I had my restaurant, so who knows? I just read that Big Pharma is regularly dumping untold amounts of drugs into our water supply. Shouldn't be a surprise, but to know they are blatantly doing this is beyond shocking. It's like money and greed are all that's important and no one cares how long our world continues to exist. Okay, I've officially depressed myself now. Bring on the videos of kitties and puppies! I need a cuteness fix.

Sorry for rambling. Geez, she says she's going away and now she won't shut up!

I wish everyone here health, happiness and peace of mind. A tall order, but maybe we can get a little piece of it.

Linda

StarZ
September 26th, 2009, 10:54 PM
Lemony Snickets, a series of unfortunate events (I love saying that lol). It is the proverbial lemonade with them there lemons. I would just like to say once again thet this site (and the various like it) drgged me kicking and screaming from those sons of whoremongers murdering apathetic psudo Drs! I cant believe that just made my hands shake with rage. I cant hear this Gee. Thank you for sharing your doubts and the concerns for your failing wellness. Following untravenous IV antibots it is no wonder that you have not been your old self since. You do need to move, get out and laugh I am afraid to tell you that indeed lying there in bed will kill you nomatter what you have. Small steps, just making it down stairs is cool enough for a start. I run now, I cant believe it myself. 7km non stop 2-3 times a week. I was ready to throw in the towel and just fade. Yes every pimple gets vetted through poz eyes before the rational returns, I cant promise you will ever be free in your mind. Your body decisions are a different matter. We say shit in shit out in product certification ie quality inputs are a starting point. Your strep is unfortunate, the antibots are a short term measure. You may have required a longterm herbal strategy at the time of your apparent recovery. This would have kept you too smelly for germs (lol ginger, garlic, tumeric, etc) buying you time to recover your own strenght. Maybe you could research what to do when you recover this time, get it off your mind, get some joy back in there and anticipate something. (Retail therapy- nothing like buying a dress for next christmas to remind you you will make it!). Plan your career jumping off point upon recovery, movies are great for distraction from dark thoughts. Wouldnt it be nice if we could have this same conversation over a persistent toe fungus in 5yrs time! People get sick please. For crying out loud, after that antibot it can nolonger be determined that any HIV is involved at all.

lightanddarkbalance
September 27th, 2009, 12:54 AM
Here we go again - another person, this time Buffalo Boy, who is suffering deteriorating health, who has taken repeated antibiotics, is aware of the dangers of ARV's but doesn't realize that antibiotics are much WORSE.

If I had a choice between 10 weeks of daily ARV's or 10 days of antibiotics I would choose hands down the ARV's.

These patterns of repeated infections, fatigue, illness, and worsening health following antibiotic treatments are all typical of an untreated condition that gets progressively worse. The reason is damage from antibiotic. The condition is Antibiotis - the newly named most serious root immune defiency syndrome, which is characterized by destruction of the flora of the intestinally lining and therefore the primary immune center of the body. This plague and the discovery of its cause is being announced to the world here on AME. I would like to give credit to all the intelligent but unconscious dissident warriors who are missing the point about drugs and which drugs cause major health damage, for allowing their bodies to provide the INDISPUTABLE evidence. Unlike the millions before you who went down the RX tubes there is every reason to realize you will not suffer the same fate - providing you get the message and get with the program.


Buffalo Boy - what have you done to repair the damage created by the antibiotics you took ?? - ?? - ??

How long do you think you have had Antibiotis.


Quote -Buffalo Boy

"Linda, I just wanted to say that I can really empathise with what you're going through. I've never taken ARVs, and have always resisted the idea, for the usual dissident reasons, and yet, here I am in bed with my THIRD bout of strep pneumonia in just under 18 months.

The first time I came down with it I was in hospital for a week being fed anti-bios by IV and it took me months to recover. I'm currently not working as I do contract work that has dried up in the recession, but I fear that even if I could find a job, that I might not actually be well enough to do it. I've been given anti-bios again and mercifully, I'm beginning to not feel so sick, but I can't help but wonder how many more bouts of pneumonia my body - and spirit - can endure before it finally kills me.

Every fibre in my being has always told me not to take HIV medication, but I feel as if I'm backed into a corner now. I want to be able to resume my life - to work, and see friends - rather than spend so much time at home in bed recovering from illness. So there's now a part of me that is beginning to wonder whether the best option is to start combination therapy and see what happens. It's not something that I want to do, but I certainly don't want my life to continue as it is because, frankly it's not a life that's really worth living right now. If ARVs help me to move forward then is that really such a bad thing?

When you're not sick it's very easy to rail against HIV medications and think of them as 'poisons' that kill - I know, because I've done it myself. But when your life seems to slipping away through one bout of illness after another, then perhaps they are worth re-considering as a last resort, when other 'alternative' treatments have failed.

I have to say, that in all my dissident years, I've always felt that it was a personal choice and would never criticise those people who took a more a conventional path. I think most people do what they think is best in their circumstances and I would never want to judge that, whether I agree with their choices or not.

So Linda, I hope that whatever you end up doing works out for you. I will certainly be interested in hearing how things go when you re-start the ARVs as, in truth, I'm terrified of going on them, so any contribution you make will certainly make a difference - for good or ill- to me."

jee
September 27th, 2009, 04:28 AM
So, logically this would mean that probiotics are useless and waste of money. For somebody who has taken a course of antibiotics for whatever reason, if they have supplemented with high quality probiotic like culturelle, jarro dophilus EPS, or theralac, they should regain all the good bacteria, correct?

So, then why the harm done by antibiotics is so long-term and often so damaging? Why are probiotics not fixing the mess created by them? Do antibiotics have special and unique abilities to harm in ways that no probiotics can fix?

When I was taking antibiotics I was actively supplementing with probiotics but I could feel that digestive health, loss of appetite, thrush etc had gotten worse.

lightanddarkbalance
September 27th, 2009, 08:45 PM
So, logically this would mean that probiotics are useless and waste of money. For somebody who has taken a course of antibiotics for whatever reason, if they have supplemented with high quality probiotic like culturelle, jarro dophilus EPS, or theralac, they should regain all the good bacteria, correct?

Incorrect and illogical

So, then why the harm done by antibiotics is so long-term and often so damaging? Why are probiotics not fixing the mess created by them? Do antibiotics have special and unique abilities to harm in ways that no probiotics can fix?

*It is so damaging because antibiotitis creates a shift in the intestinal ecology where bad bacteria replace good bacteria on the walls of the intestine. It is hard to treat because the resident bacteria as an upper hand and will fight to hold its territory. According to the degree of antibiotitis colonizalization and the number of repeated antibiotics and good or bad diet - with high carbs/high sugar being the worst - the loss of territory to antibiotitis colonization will differ in depth and degree from person to person. At the point already where even moderate loss of territory to antibiotitis infection has be achieved simplied get well quick probiotic solutions won't work. It takes time and often a multifaceted approach to even give the body a chance. Some people have lost all the good bacteria - their whole intestinal lining, nearly 30 feet of tubes containing more cells that the whole rest of the body, has become an antibiotitis infection factory. This degree of damage requires time and a comphrensive program. One product quick solutions of out of the question. So is taking more antibiotics and eating sugar.

When I was taking antibiotics I was actively supplementing with probiotics but I could feel that digestive health, loss of appetite, thrush etc had gotten worse.

* Understand - and an very goodt example of why repeated antibiotics and high sugar diets makes recovery impossible. This example also shows why simplistic solutions of taking a single good probiotic in a case where antibiotitis has colonized the whole GI tract is an insufficient solution.

cdm
September 27th, 2009, 09:23 PM
Remember or learn the Margulis theory. Mitochondria are bacteria inside our cells. They have their own DNA and provide extra (aerobic) energy to cells. So every time we are administered antibiotics, especially IV, what are our cells suffering? The mitochondria are destroyed by the antibiotics.

BuffaloBoy
September 27th, 2009, 11:44 PM
Lightanddarkbalance:

I think you have missed the point, and that point is that I was always very healthy. I was the sort of person who had two colds a year, if that, and never took a day off work. I was diagnosed with HIV and for quite some time my health remained in good shape - we're talking around 3 years. And then last year, I became sick with pnuemonia which I had to be treated with antibiotics for. And then again, in January, and then again right now.

Yes, I'm aware that this is a lot of antibiotics, although I don't know how this compares with the average person in the UK. But if that is the only thing that will stop the symptoms of pneumonia then I'm going to take them. If you've ever suffered with pneumonia then you will know what I'm talking about. The sense of heat and thirst is like being lost in the desert with no water in sight. It really is a living hell and one anyone would take pretty much anything for in order to make it stop.

But the real issue is that how come I was this healthy 30 something and then, a few years after my diagnosis I started to get ill? I will wager that there are millions of people who live a far more unhealthy life that I do/did who aren't coming down with pneumonia once, let alone every 8 months or so. What you seem to miss is that the the illness came first. It was only after I fell sick that I had to take antibiotics, so I don't see how you can argue that they are the cause of my ill health - at least not initially.

G Man
September 28th, 2009, 01:02 AM
BuffaloBoy,

Is your illness something very recent? I remember this post you made last month, seems like you were doing OK then: http://forums.aidsmythexposed.com/main-forum/5790-conspiracy-theory-3.html#post34794

lightanddarkbalance
September 28th, 2009, 02:05 AM
Buffalo Boy,

I understand correctly that you have had 3 bouts of high dose antibiotics in the last 18 months. Prior to that you describe yourself as healthy. My statement argues that the repeated pneumonias is from antibiotic damage. I am not referring to the first bout of pneumonia but repeated bouts. How many people in the UK have pneumonia in a year ? - a good number. Three pneumonias in 18 months is a whole other thing. Why does someone have pneumonia - the answer would depend on the person. What about repeated pneumonia's - again the answer depends on the person. In your case we know something very important that can fully explain repeated pneumonias - and that is that you have been damaged by antibiotics. Do antibiotics predispose someone to pneumonia - the answer is absolutley.

Your post underscores an awareness and concern about the dangers of ARV drugs. Are you also aware of the dangers of Antibiotics. It appears not. My own ideas which are based on known evidence is that following antibiotic treatment peoples health is worse and the more frequent the antibiotic treatments are the more frequently they are sick and the worse the illnesses become.

I asked you what did you do to repair the damage done by antibiotics. You didn't answer. There need not be a fourth pneumonia in the future.

I can speculate that had the damage been repaired there would not have been a second and third occurence of pneumonia. With each antibiotic treatment the primary cause of Aids, Antibiotis, becomes progressively worse. When someone reports like you did that it took months to recover from the first pneumonia which was treated with IV antibiotics what they are really saying without knowing it is that the antibiotics weakened and damaged them significantly. Unless that damage is repaired there will be repeated illness. More antibiotic treatments do not add up to 1 plus 1 = 2, rather, 1 plus 1 = a 10 or 20 fold worsening because the unrepaired damage done from each is compounded greatly.

BuffaloBoy
September 28th, 2009, 06:32 AM
So why do you say that antibiotics caused the second and third bout of pneumonia, but not the first? What could account for the initial episode?

I'm well aware that many people in the UK contract pneumonia do we know how many have repeated bouts? I suspect that it's only a relatively small number that go on to suffer from it again and again and the vast majority if not all will have been treated with antibiotics since without them it is nearly always fatal. It seems as if you are saying that some people become dmamaged by antibiotics and others don't. Perhaps one common thread between those who suffer time and time again is HIV?

As for what I did after the pneumonia treatment? I stopped smoking, gave up drinking for a while to allow my body a chance to recover, before re-introducing alcohol in small amounts, took pre/probiotics for a month, and increased the amount of fresh vegetables in my diet, although my diet has always been pretty good anyway since I've always tended to cook all my food myself rather than eating anything processsed.

This may not conform to what you think is the best way to repair 'antibiotic damage', but I'm fairly certain it's far more than the majority of people do having been prescribed a course of anti-bios, and most people aren't getting sick with pneumonia over and over.

IMMichaelG
September 28th, 2009, 07:42 AM
Just wondering something, BuffaloBoy. I am wondering what you think.

Why do YOU think you are getting sick repeatedly?

BuffaloBoy
September 28th, 2009, 03:07 PM
Just wondering something, BuffaloBoy. I am wondering what you think.

Why do YOU think you are getting sick repeatedly?

I don't know and if I did then perhaps I could do something about it. I've recently had a CD4 count taken which registered 124. In conventional terms, as we all know, this is considered very low.

And to Gman, I have fallen sick since that post of mine you linked to the other month. I was doing ok, pretty much, for most of the year after I got over my second bout of pneumonia in Jan/Feb, but then the week before last, rather out of the blue, I became ill again.

G Man
September 28th, 2009, 04:30 PM
I've recently had a CD4 count taken which registered 124. In conventional terms, as we all know, this is considered very low.

So, do you think the CD4 test has something to do with your illness? I'll never get that test again, so I guess I will never know what my number is. And thank god I won't, I do not think it is good for one's mental state to be told you are going to die based on a number that actually means very little in terms of overall health.

Seems to me you are letting the orthodoxy creep back into your consciousness just because you were sick for awhile. I'm a little confused by that. Let's not beat around the bush anymore - Do you think you have AIDS??? And if so, do you think HIV is the cause?

HansSelyeWasCorrect
September 28th, 2009, 07:37 PM
BuffaloBoy: All anyone can provide is a guess, because we don't' know your complete history (including diet and supplements, if any). And even if you provided it, you might have forgotten several key things. Also, many if not most people seem to have a "weak point." Mine is my stomach. A female relative has frequent urinary tract infections. A male relative has tonsil issues. Another has had "walking pneumonia" a couple of times. In any case, I suggest you read the book, "When AIDS Began," because it supplies enough information, IMO, to demonstrate that the early "AIDS" cases were mostly about an unhealthy lifestyle followed by "medical treatments" and "medicine" in a "yo-yo" fashion that led to such disruptions that various "opportunistic infections" could thrive. At least one doctor at the time stated that the meds could cause the PCP, for example. You can read portions of this book on the free google books service.

BuffaloBoy
September 29th, 2009, 01:00 AM
BuffaloBoy: All anyone can provide is a guess, because we don't' know your complete history (including diet and supplements, if any). And even if you provided it, you might have forgotten several key things. Also, many if not most people seem to have a "weak point." Mine is my stomach. A female relative has frequent urinary tract infections. A male relative has tonsil issues. Another has had "walking pneumonia" a couple of times. In any case, I suggest you read the book, "When AIDS Began," because it supplies enough information, IMO, to demonstrate that the early "AIDS" cases were mostly about an unhealthy lifestyle followed by "medical treatments" and "medicine" in a "yo-yo" fashion that led to such disruptions that various "opportunistic infections" could thrive. At least one doctor at the time stated that the meds could cause the PCP, for example. You can read portions of this book on the free google books service.

This is hokum. As I say, there are plenty of people with far more unhealthy lifestyles than mine. My health has nothing to do with 'When AIDS began', 'medical treatments' or 'yo-yo medicine'; I can think of several friends who take recreational drugs, eat poorly, drink like fish, and have yet to succumb to one bout of pneumonia, let alone several. My health is just failing, and that can't be too difficult to understand.

And no one should need to follow tricksy diets ad infinitum, or take expensive supplements month after month. I never needed to in the past and my health remained in a good state, so why should I need to start now?

lightanddarkbalance
September 29th, 2009, 02:10 AM
Very telling and diagnostically no good- calls taking supplements hokum, takes t cells tests and believes they measure health, believes ARVs are dangerous but considers antibiotics not a problem, wonders why, as one of the hundreds of thousands of people in the UK who got pneumonia during the period of the first pnemonia - 99.9 % who were HIV negative - that he got pneumonia, and speculates it can only be HIV. Hokuming onward towards possible health disaster is the testimony that one month of prebiotics/probiotics were taken to repair antibiotic damage. Anyone who takes just one month of prebiotics/probiotics ( assuming that its even true considering the supplements are hokum comment ) after IV antibiotics doesn't know what their doing because even in the unlikely event they were taking therapeutic quality supplements ( very unlikely ) no one who knew what they were fighting against would stop at 1 month after such damage.

The future depends on whether or not the damage to the intestinal flora can be repaired. There is no way out now but repair and no repair without those Hokum prebiotics / probiotics. And considering the cognitive state of the owner of the body it would be essential to walk past the clinic where the T Cell tests are done, cancel the appointment, and run to an alternative practioneer who knows all the Hokum nonsense that will save one from RX drugs and themselves.

So Buffalo Boy - your appreciation for Hokum needs to look inward. You have 25 years of accumulated wisdom to guide you. 25 years of hundreds of thousands of unnecesary medically created deaths to give you perspective. If you wish to dishonor the suffering of all those who came before you who lost their lives to RX drugs and T Cell voodoo Aids Zone Hokum so the lesson of AIDS reality can be given to you, you have the choice to deny it. You Buffalo Boy, unlike the majority of blind faith vicitms of medicine are aware of the dissident view. What you do and what happens to you will depend on whether or not your dissident understanding is mature or superfical.

G Man
September 29th, 2009, 03:36 AM
Nice post Lightanddark.

BuffaloBoy
September 29th, 2009, 11:58 AM
Very telling and diagnostically no good- calls taking supplements hokum, takes t cells tests and believes they measure health, believes ARVs are dangerous but considers antibiotics not a problem, wonders why, as one of the hundreds of thousands of people in the UK who got pneumonia during the period of the first pnemonia - 99.9 % who were HIV negative - that he got pneumonia, and speculates it can only be HIV. Hokuming onward towards possible health disaster is the testimony that one month of prebiotics/probiotics were taken to repair antibiotic damage. Anyone who takes just one month of prebiotics/probiotics ( assuming that its even true considering the supplements are hokum comment ) after IV antibiotics doesn't know what their doing because even in the unlikely event they were taking therapeutic quality supplements ( very unlikely ) no one who knew what they were fighting against would stop at 1 month after such damage.

The future depends on whether or not the damage to the intestinal flora can be repaired. There is no way out now but repair and no repair without those Hokum prebiotics / probiotics. And considering the cognitive state of the owner of the body it would be essential to walk past the clinic where the T Cell tests are done, cancel the appointment, and run to an alternative practioneer who knows all the Hokum nonsense that will save one from RX drugs and themselves.

So Buffalo Boy - your appreciation for Hokum needs to look inward. You have 25 years of accumulated wisdom to guide you. 25 years of hundreds of thousands of unnecesary medically created deaths to give you perspective. If you wish to dishonor the suffering of all those who came before you who lost their lives to RX drugs and T Cell voodoo Aids Zone Hokum so the lesson of AIDS reality can be given to you, you have the choice to deny it. You Buffalo Boy, unlike the majority of blind faith vicitms of medicine are aware of the dissident view. What you do and what happens to you will depend on whether or not your dissident understanding is mature or superfical.

I didn't mean that taking supplements was hokum - I meant that your post was. What the dissident movement has never been very good at doing is being able to explain why people with an HIV diagnosis get sick in the first place, BEFORE any medical intervention, be that antibiotics and/ARVs.

Of course I can understand that something like AZT was a horror visited on many people that in some cases killed them, or made them far worse in the long term, but some of these people felt they had no choice, rightly or wrongly, since their health was in rapid decline anyway.

But we still need to explain what made people so ill in the first place that made them feel compelled to take such desperate measures? Perhaps if you can answer that, we might get a little closer to understanding what might actually help people in the same sort of position today.

zenileon
September 29th, 2009, 01:36 PM
This is hokum. As I say, there are plenty of people with far more unhealthy lifestyles than mine. My health has nothing to do with 'When AIDS began', 'medical treatments' or 'yo-yo medicine'; I can think of several friends who take recreational drugs, eat poorly, drink like fish, and have yet to succumb to one bout of pneumonia, let alone several. My health is just failing, and that can't be too difficult to understand.

And no one should need to follow tricksy diets ad infinitum, or take expensive supplements month after month. I never needed to in the past and my health remained in a good state, so why should I need to start now?

Hi BB, perhaps you are one of those people, like myself, who cannot do exactly what they like when it comes to eating and drinking. I would argue that your friends unhealthy lifestyles are probably playing havoc with their systems in ways that although not overt, are very real.
For years, I did not realise that I was just sensitive to a whole lot of the stuff that was put in the food we eat regularly, whilst my peers, were not. For years I suffered with a burning pain in my chest added with palpitations whenever I did any exercise, no matter how minor. After much investigation I discovered that it was the pottassium sulphite and metabisulphate that was put into the fruit squashes that were causing the problem. I cut them out and the dreadful chest pains stopped.
I have also discovered how aspartame and other artificial sweeteners make me tired, like, really tired, very quickly, how carrots and fruit make me hungry and how, no matter how unglamorous they may seem raw green vegetables are good in all manner of ways for ones system.

Why not experiment with the Hays Diet, and cut out all non organic produce and see how things go.

resistanceisfruitful
September 29th, 2009, 01:51 PM
Buffalo Boy,

There are few questions that have been addressed in greater depth than the possible causes of illness and immune distress in those labeled with "AIDS".

Why shouldn't people with a positive Gallo test result not get sick? Everyone else does!

How many times... how many websites... how many books.... have accounted the various aspects of the fast track lifestyle (prominent in the coastal gay communities) of the 1960s, 70s and 80s that led to immune distress and eventually collapse?

There are several, multi-factoral and often cumulative causes of "AIDS". Pointing to partying friends who remain healthy is kinda bogus (hokum) too, if you think about it. You don't know who is ill and who is healthy just from casual social interaction. You don't know who is currently eroding their immune system with their lifestyle, but have yet reached the point of deterioration to cause serious illness.

You are not the only person experiencing recurring symptoms, like pneumonia. I get emails from family members (non-HIV) all the time about flus, pneumonia and other infections in them and their kids. These are not "fast track lifestyle" folks either. I think the statistics would show that people get such sicknesses far more often than they did fifty or a hundred years ago. These are the same people who are taking antibiotics and antifungals; antidepressants and psychotropics; and hormones and steroids at an unprecedented rate.

Many "at risk" individuals (read: gay men) are ahead of the curve in their use of these same drugs.

Pharmaceutical drugs are not the only factor causing illness, particularly in very sexually active gay men. Poppers and exposure to semen being two likely stressors.

Then there is the overall load of environmental toxins that all of us are exposed to, in varying degrees, depending on location, diet and lifestyle.

Finally, I do think for some people there may be genetic pre-dispositions to autoimmune disorders that get described as "AIDS" when there is a positive HIV test result.

This is just a partial summary off the top of my head of what I would consider some long-standing explanations made here at AME and other places.

It may well take some combination of the above factors, and/or accumulation of effects or toxins before illness manifests. What combination and how long can be variable. The possibilities for variables that could explain "why you" is nearly infinite.

You are now trying to divert the conversation AWAY from those things that make you uncomfortable or that might require you to take some personal responsibility that you aren't comfortable with by asking the rest of us to explain "why you" are getting sick.

There may be no answer, or finding out may take more effort, energy and cost than simply accepting the fact that you need to make as many changes as necessary to simply "be healthy" again. When suggestions are made here, you find ways to dismiss them.

Your latest posts do seem to be asserting a case that you are progressing to AIDS. I don't see a future of health on any path heading that direction.


I didn't mean that taking supplements was hokum - I meant that your post was. What the dissident movement has never been very good at doing is being able to explain why people with an HIV diagnosis get sick in the first place, BEFORE any medical intervention, be that antibiotics and/ARVs.

Of course I can understand that something like AZT was a horror visited on many people that in some cases killed them, or made them far worse in the long term, but some of these people felt they had no choice, rightly or wrongly, since their health was in rapid decline anyway.

But we still need to explain what made people so ill in the first place that made them feel compelled to take such desperate measures? Perhaps if you can answer that, we might get a little closer to understanding what might actually help people in the same sort of position today.

G Man
September 29th, 2009, 04:14 PM
What the dissident movement has never been very good at doing is being able to explain why people with an HIV diagnosis get sick in the first place, BEFORE any medical intervention, be that antibiotics and/ARVs.

But we still need to explain what made people so ill in the first place that made them feel compelled to take such desperate measures? Perhaps if you can answer that, we might get a little closer to understanding what might actually help people in the same sort of position today.

Why is it the dissident movement's job to explain why an individual gets sick?
Isn't half the world population trying to figure that out? What does that have to do with HIV? My mom had pneumonia before she died, actually several times. HIV and CD4 tests did not enter my mind even once. Take cancer, almost everyone seems to be dying of it these days. The cause can't be explained. I just can't wrap my mind around why you think the dissident movement has the responsibility to figure out why you or anyone is sick, when the medical establishment itself cannot figure that out.

I think the better thing to be asking is, why don't ALL POS PEOPLE GET SICK? And better yet, why don't they all die as would be expected with a killer virus?

I believe you are shifting the burden of proof to the wrong people. If someone is going to make a claim that something causes disease, then put tens of millions on risky medication, the burden is clearly ON THEM to prove that the thing in question is responsible. Don't you think?

Aion
September 29th, 2009, 04:49 PM
So many great posts in this topic. Just thought I'd make a couple remarks.

Sick people get scared, and even terrified. I remember when I had pneumonia; I had never been so sick, even after the career-ending car accident I was in years back that laid me up in bed for a year and a half with spinal and brain-stem trauma and took over 8 years to more or less "fully" recover from.

It's made so much worse when nobody can give you definitive answers about anything.

And when you have people around you pressuring you to do something that doesn't seem quite right, it's all the more frightening.

After I got better from the pneumonia, I was still very ill from a rare undiagnosed autoimmune disorder that everyone assumed was AIDS despite never having been exposed to HIV, or even testing positive with the antibody tests. I never permitted a Viral Load test, because I saw no point in using a "prognostic indicator" whatsoever.

I suffered for months without knowing what was wrong with me, and had some symptoms that were frightening. What could be more scary than being told that you could potentially go blind if your condition worsens and you don't get to the ER in time ? I was more than scared. I was barely able to keep from hysteresis. It took everything I had, everything I'd ever learned my entire life, everything I knew, just to hold it together; and not to brag, but I am usually considered an extremely intelligent and resourceful person by people who meet me.

Which brings me to a point that I need to make here, which I am sure is not going to be well received by some, but so be it. In the current medical and pseudo-scientific environment in the US anyway, what passes for modern medical treatment, heavy on prescription drugs, profiteering, fraud, and rampant unchecked greed, as well as the sick and inane tendency to elevate physicians to an undeserved deity-like status - shows like "House" for instance. I mean, Jesus Fucking Christ, if he's SUCH an amazing genius, why is it he's suffering from nerve damage in his leg and popping hydrocodone 6 times a day, when he could have just had an intravenous DMSO treatment or two, or even used some topically, from a Veterinarian ?

What I'm trying to say is misdiagnosis and even maldiagnosis is not uncommon, and there are probably a lot more cases than some dissidents who think of themselves as real hard-core dedicated to the cause people where a very short run of ARV's is going to be more beneficial than it is damaging. There are any number of medical conditions that ARV's can, in fact, cure. Granted, it's like using a sledgehammer to put in a finishing nail, but if you can simply not get an appropriate diagnosis from a slew of incompetent doctors, what else can you do, in order to survive ?

Too often in these forums dissident who have almost no knowledge of physiology, much less serology, toxicology, or pharmacology make armchair quarterback judgments of people's conditions without knowing anything that would make a judgment appropriate. Without a complete medical history you are really just guessing, and I wouldn't let anyone here's best guess dictate my medical treatment.

That would be just as crazy as letting a doctor I just met put me on ARV's for a virus I've never even been exposed to.

I'm just sayin'... We need to, at some point admit, that MAYBE ARV's for a month would have saved certain people's lives, under certain conditions.

This isn't to say that something else wouldn't have been a more appropriate, more specific, less toxic treatment - but THAT would require someone actually looking for something else, and having the experience, the will and resources to FIND it.

We shouldn't be falling for the scam the medical community has created - their own research has exposed that ARV's work best when used for short periods now, which is a huge change from the "Hit Hard, Hit Early" and keep 'em on the drugs till they die strategy that's always been pushed.

We need to face the fact that arm chair dissidence is not going to cure anyone. But it could very well help force the medical establishment to change where it has been looking for solutions. Eventually this alone will cause the mono-causal hypothesis to rightfully implode upon itself, and with it the virologists concept of HIV/AIDS.

BuffaloBoy
September 30th, 2009, 10:27 AM
Why is it the dissident movement's job to explain why an individual gets sick?
I think the better thing to be asking is, why don't ALL POS PEOPLE GET SICK? And better yet, why don't they all die as would be expected with a killer virus?

I believe you are shifting the burden of proof to the wrong people. If someone is going to make a claim that something causes disease, then put tens of millions on risky medication, the burden is clearly ON THEM to prove that the thing in question is responsible. Don't you think?

But the dissident movement has been quite vocal in explaining why gay men, in particular, with a positive diagnosis get sick, with frequent talk of a 'fast-track lifestyle' and/or 'antibiotic damage'.

I think the question about why don't all positive get sick is well worth asking, and I don't think that LTNPs have been studied anywhere near enough, if at all. Personally, I'm inclined to believe that LTNPs could potentially unlock the mysteries of what is called 'HIV/AIDS', rather than focusing on 'vaccines' with an abysmal 'success' rate (to date).

But then, if we think of a less contraversial virus - herpes simplex - millions of people carry this in their system but only a percentage suffer from outbreaks of cold sores. For many people, it just seems to sit there never doing very much at all and yet, for others, their lips can erupt into painful, disfiguring blisters month after month.

And, just like with HIV, no one seems to understand why some people experience outbreaks of lesions and others remain largely unaffected. But just because some people are fortunate enough to remain free of cold sores, it's a bit of a stretch to claim that herpes simplex is always a benign pathogen.

G Man
September 30th, 2009, 02:49 PM
But the dissident movement has been quite vocal in explaining why gay men, in particular, with a positive diagnosis get sick, with frequent talk of a 'fast-track lifestyle' and/or 'antibiotic damage'.

Maybe so, but that doesn't mean it has an obligation to do so. Whoever proclaims that HIV causes AIDS, the burden is on them to prove it. Not for us to disprove it.


And, just like with HIV, no one seems to understand why some people experience outbreaks of lesions and others remain largely unaffected. But just because some people are fortunate enough to remain free of cold sores, it's a bit of a stretch to claim that herpes simplex is always a benign pathogen.

"Just like with HIV"??? What makes you assume they are similar at all? Just because it's a 'bit of a stretch" to claim herpes is always a benign pathogen, does not mean it's a stretch to say that HIV is a benign pathogen. In fact, it hasn't been proven to my and many other's satisfaction that it's even a 'pathogen' at all, so this is like comparing apples to oranges.

You assume a lot that's never been proven.

John Bleau
September 30th, 2009, 05:37 PM
BuffaloBoy,

What percentage of people who were put on AZT in the late 80s and early 90s were very sick to begin with? I get the impression that these people may have had health issues but were put on that drug because of an HIV+ diagnosis.

You say that AZT "in some cases" killed its patients and their health was in "rapid decline anyway". This does not gibe with today's very low death rate despite the fact that nowadays only 1/4 of HIV+s in the USA take ARVs, so it's not the new drugs that are responsible for the greatly reduced death rate. I would attribute the rapid health decline back then to AZT and the drop in the death rate since then to reduced dosages of AZT and possibly Combivir mitigating its lethal effects.

In my opinion, an HIV+ status is likely to be due to hypergammaglobulinemia, ie increased production of antibodies and/or cellular debris that registers as positivity. What causes this increased production is likely to be pathological (malnutrition, chronic illness, licit and illicit drug use), so yes, an HIV+ diagnosis probably correlates with, but does not prove, poorer health. The correlative arguments spewed out by the mainstream as "proof" of HIV and that it causes AIDS are bogus for that reason.

Also, it's very telling that their disinformants (including one who posted on this site) are unable to provide up-to-date statistics on HIV prevalence, on how many are taking ARVs, how many are dying from the side effects, and the death rates of those on ARVs vs those with similar profiles who are not.

So I put the opening question to you and maybe you can also fill us in on these missing statistics.

BuffaloBoy
September 30th, 2009, 05:56 PM
Maybe so, but that doesn't mean it has an obligation to do so. Whoever proclaims that HIV causes AIDS, the burden is on them to prove it. Not for us to disprove it.



"Just like with HIV"??? What makes you assume they are similar at all? Just because it's a 'bit of a stretch" to claim herpes is always a benign pathogen, does not mean it's a stretch to say that HIV is a benign pathogen. In fact, it hasn't been proven to my and many other's satisfaction that it's even a 'pathogen' at all, so this is like comparing apples to oranges.

You assume a lot that's never been proven.

Isn't that what you're doing though?

G Man
September 30th, 2009, 08:23 PM
Isn't that what you're doing though?

No, because I don't have the burden of proof. I don't assume there is a killer virus out there until it is proven. Just because someone claims something kills does not mean I should assume it does without proof.

I could sit here and make up a new virus....say I named it 'Buffaloboy virus' (no offense). I claim that it kills people. And I think you have it and I want to give you some toxic meds for your new disease. Now, is the burden of proof on you to disprove that Buffaloboy virus is real and is going to kill you, or is that burden on me to prove it? You tell me....Somehow I don't think you'll eat 'Buffaloboy virus' meds until you get proof beyond any doubt.

BuffaloBoy
September 30th, 2009, 10:15 PM
No, because I don't have the burden of proof. I don't assume there is a killer virus out there until it is proven. Just because someone claims something kills does not mean I should assume it does without proof.

I could sit here and make up a new virus....say I named it 'Buffaloboy virus' (no offense). I claim that it kills people. And I think you have it and I want to give you some toxic meds for your new disease. Now, is the burden of proof on you to disprove that Buffaloboy virus is real and is going to kill you, or is that burden on me to prove it? You tell me....Somehow I don't think you'll eat 'Buffaloboy virus' meds until you get proof beyond any doubt.

At the heart of the matter is the fact that some people with an HIV diagnosis become ill. Others appear not to. This isn't so different to other viruses- I've already pointed out that herpes simplex seems to affect some people far more than it does others, and the 1918 flu epidemic wiped out millions of people but, for some reason, not all.

I don't know about you, but I beleive that viruses do exist but they don't always have the same impact on the people they infect.

I've noticed something in the dissident movement and that's how people can often be very unsypathetic towards those with an HIV diagnosis (and not everyone who posts here has 'HIV') and who are experiencing poor health and considering conventional treatment. Linda was almost driven from the forum by what she described as 'being beaten over the head.' at a time when her health options seemed very limited. Not terribly supportive, for someone simply looking to move forward in a life that she herself describes as not being one that most people would want to live.

I've always been interested in alternative treatments and the idea of of holistic healing, but the harsh reality is that for something that would require ongoing sessions with a practioner, as well as paying for any necessary herbal remedies, as someone who is not working, I simply don't have the funds to pursue this route. So what am I meant to do? Lie in bed feeling poorly, day after day?

In some respects, the dissident movement seems every bit as dogmatic as the mainstream whereby, unless you sign up 100% to the 'alternative' way of thinking then you're characterised as The Enemy; strange for people who consider themselves to be intelligent free-thinkers.

G Man
September 30th, 2009, 11:07 PM
At the heart of the matter is the fact that some people with an HIV diagnosis become ill. Others appear not to. This isn't so different to other viruses- I've already pointed out that herpes simplex seems to affect some people far more than it does others, and the 1918 flu epidemic wiped out millions of people but, for some reason, not all.

I don't know about you, but I beleive that viruses do exist but they don't always have the same impact on the people they infect.

I've noticed something in the dissident movement and that's how people can often be very unsypathetic towards those with an HIV diagnosis (and not everyone who posts here has 'HIV') and who are experiencing poor health and considering conventional treatment. Linda was almost driven from the forum by what she described as 'being beaten over the head.' at a time when her health options seemed very limited. Not terribly supportive, for someone simply looking to move forward in a life that she herself describes as not being one that most people would want to live.

I've always been interested in alternative treatments and the idea of of holistic healing, but the harsh reality is that for something that would require ongoing sessions with a practioner, as well as paying for any necessary herbal remedies, as someone who is not working, I simply don't have the funds to pursue this route. So what am I meant to do? Lie in bed feeling poorly, day after day?

In some respects, the dissident movement seems every bit as dogmatic as the mainstream whereby, unless you sign up 100% to the 'alternative' way of thinking then you're characterised as The Enemy; strange for people who consider themselves to be intelligent free-thinkers.

OK, where to start with that. First, some people with 'buffaloboy virus' become ill too. Does that mean 'buffaloboy virus' did it? I don't understand your logic at all. You continue to assert that because you are ill, HIV is the culprit. Why is that?

Second, I never characterized you or anyone as 'the enemy'. All I did was ask you some questions and showed some examples to better illustrate my point. But instead of answering that, you go off into a discussion about how the dissidents are dogmatic and not for free thinking. ????:confused:

And, if you bothered to read the posts about Linda, I and MANY OTHERS fully supported her decision to do whatever she needed to do. I am truly blown away by your comments that she was 'driven from the forum'. As I recall, SHE made the decision to leave the forum, and most of the people here wished her well. But then I guess she ultimately decided to hang around because she's still posting as of today.

Why you've chosen to make this an argument about the dissident movement not being sympathetic to free thinking is beyond me. Even if that were true, WHO CARES? The discussion should not be focused on that, it's irrelevant.

So, let's get to the heart of the issue:

SHOW ME SOME PROOF THAT HIV IS THE CAUSE OF AIDS. Then we can have an intelligent conversation. Until then, this back and forth with you on semantics is absolutely pointless.

moonchild493
October 1st, 2009, 01:08 AM
Hi Guys,

I made the decision to leave for 2 main reasons: because I knew some people would hound me unmercifully for my decision regarding ARVs (it happened to be pretty much only one person, and I was touched by the kindness and support of many members) and the difficulty reading over and over about how toxic and poisonous the drugs are. I'm well aware of the facts concerning them and I had to take everything into consideration.

I think we need to cut BuffaloBoy a little slack. He is obviously scared about what's happening to him and confused, as many of us are, about the causes. He may go a bit overboard in his assumptions, but he is just trying to figure it all out, as are so many of us. He is having a hard time getting it into his head that sometimes shit happens, positive or not. Given the examples we see in the press and elsewhere, it is sometimes hard to realize that the "easy" explanation could well be full of holes. He is looking for answers which may not be there, and that is beyond frustrating. Trust me, I know. So a little extra patience may be in order, although it is frustrating to hear someone ask the same questions over and over.

BuffaloBoy,I hung around after all because I think there are ways I can contribute. Please take care of yourself. There is a lot of good information here, and don't discount the spiritual discussion on the other thread. If you're not at least doing yoga and meditating, it's time you start. It doesn't cost anything except maybe a DVD or CD, and it could be of great help. Your mind and spirit likely has a great effect on your physical health.

Linda

quyenbigbang
October 1st, 2009, 09:35 AM
Dear Moonchild,

I am behind you totally for your decision. If you're sick and try everything natural and it does not work, you've got to take whatever left that make you feel good, that's why we call these ARV the last resort. My mom is a pharmacist and she is pretty much opposed to all the prescriptions and super expensive supplement. However, that does not mean she never use western drug if it's neccesary.

For all of you who embrace eastern stuff, I saw enough abuse in those practice in my country to be really critical of them as well. My sister has chronic asthma and the eastern medicine practitioner makes her worse. The western one did not fare very well either.

I think the point of the dissdent movement is ultimately making people aware that they have choice and hope outside the establishment, the rest is up to them. Imposing an absolute is bad, no matter whose side we are on.

Aion
October 1st, 2009, 04:01 PM
BuffaloBoy,

What percentage of people who were put on AZT in the late 80s and early 90s were very sick to begin with? I get the impression that these people may have had health issues but were put on that drug because of an HIV+ diagnosis.

All you needed was to test positive to be put on zidovudine monotherapy, so it doesn't really matter how sick people were or if they were even sick at all. The fact that nobody uses zidovudine by itself as a treatment option, or even in comparative doses anymore is an indication of how ineffective it is. Also, the long-term side effects of AZT are conveniently ignored, even attributed to HIV infection itself, and it's carcinogenicity downplayed.

You say that AZT "in some cases" killed its patients and their health was in "rapid decline anyway". This does not gibe with today's very low death rate despite the fact that nowadays only 1/4 of HIV+s in the USA take ARVs, so it's not the new drugs that are responsible for the greatly reduced death rate. I would attribute the rapid health decline back then to AZT and the drop in the death rate since then to reduced dosages of AZT and possibly Combivir mitigating its lethal effects.

I'm not so sure you can attribute anything positive to the combination of zidovudine and lamivudine; AZT and 3TC. Lamivudine, while often cited as having comparative few side-effects by most HIV/AIDS and Glaxo promotional outles, like TheBody, is actually a nasty, nasty drug.

It kind of pisses me off when 3TC toxicity is downplayed; the ONLY way one could pass-off 3TC as being even remotely "safe" is to compare it to a horrendous treatment like AZT monotherapy. When HIV positive people go to sites like TheBody they get a sunny little Glaxo approved snippet of the real spectrum of side effects of 3TC. If you go to drugs dot com you get an entirely different and ghastly perspective of just how nasty this drug can be.

So, no, I don't buy for a second that lamivudine mitigates zidovudine toxicity in any way. If you reduce the dosages of two drugs and then combine them you often get a synergistic effect, that is, you can see an enhancement of supposed therapeutic value - as well as potential toxicity enhancement.

There's promotional literature and then there's basic toxicology, and the two are worlds apart.

In my opinion, an HIV+ status is likely to be due to hypergammaglobulinemia, ie increased production of antibodies and/or cellular debris that registers as positivity. What causes this increased production is likely to be pathological (malnutrition, chronic illness, licit and illicit drug use), so yes, an HIV+ diagnosis probably correlates with, but does not prove, poorer health. The correlative arguments spewed out by the mainstream as "proof" of HIV and that it causes AIDS are bogus for that reason.

Simply being on antibiotics and needing to be on them is sufficient for an HIV positive antibody test result. That this fact has been so well suppressed and ignored is quite an achievement from the perspective of mega corporations with shitty, experimental drugs to push on sick and scared people.

Also, it's very telling that their disinformants (including one who posted on this site) are unable to provide up-to-date statistics on HIV prevalence, on how many are taking ARVs, how many are dying from the side effects, and the death rates of those on ARVs vs those with similar profiles who are not.

That and without any real compliance data who can even say if people are taking the drugs ? "Med Rage" is not uncommon with people, though you rarely ever hear the pushers talk about it. People get fed-up and skip doses or quit taking them altogether without telling anyone all the time.

The pushers of the experimental treatment options, of which ALL HIV drugs are, have been extremely successful in getting physicians and so-called treatment advocacy NPO's to go along with their agenda.

So I put the opening question to you and maybe you can also fill us in on these missing statistics.

Statistics are great, they can say whatever you want them to by simple selective omission. Facts, like real documented data on side effects is another matter entirely. More dissidents should take some pharmacology and toxicology classes.

G Man
October 1st, 2009, 06:18 PM
Linda,

I dont think Im being too hard on him. Especially when he says things like this:



In some respects, the dissident movement seems every bit as dogmatic as the mainstream whereby, unless you sign up 100% to the 'alternative' way of thinking then you're characterised as The Enemy; strange for people who consider themselves to be intelligent free-thinkers.

That is just over the top. No one has characterized anyone here as The Enemy for not accepting the dissident position 100%. What gets me most is, when I try to debate him on anything, instead of defending his position I get this type of response instead. Irritating, to say the least. Im done with the guy.

BuffaloBoy
October 1st, 2009, 11:45 PM
Hi Guys,

I made the decision to leave for 2 main reasons: because I knew some people would hound me unmercifully for my decision regarding ARVs (it happened to be pretty much only one person, and I was touched by the kindness and support of many members) and the difficulty reading over and over about how toxic and poisonous the drugs are. I'm well aware of the facts concerning them and I had to take everything into consideration.

I think we need to cut BuffaloBoy a little slack. He is obviously scared about what's happening to him and confused, as many of us are, about the causes. He may go a bit overboard in his assumptions, but he is just trying to figure it all out, as are so many of us. He is having a hard time getting it into his head that sometimes shit happens, positive or not. Given the examples we see in the press and elsewhere, it is sometimes hard to realize that the "easy" explanation could well be full of holes. He is looking for answers which may not be there, and that is beyond frustrating. Trust me, I know. So a little extra patience may be in order, although it is frustrating to hear someone ask the same questions over and over.

BuffaloBoy,I hung around after all because I think there are ways I can contribute. Please take care of yourself. There is a lot of good information here, and don't discount the spiritual discussion on the other thread. If you're not at least doing yoga and meditating, it's time you start. It doesn't cost anything except maybe a DVD or CD, and it could be of great help. Your mind and spirit likely has a great effect on your physical health.

LindaLinda,

Thank you so much for your kind words and understanding; it's much appreciated.

I think it's sometimes forgotten that the dissident movement is a broad church and that we we don't all think the same way; we're here because we have questions about the orthodox view of 'HIV/AIDS' although those questions can, and do, vary, depending on the individual.

It's always interesting to read about alternative ideas, but no one here is in a position to prove anything, let alone state universal truths, especially bearing in mind that those of us with a positive diagnosis don't all experience the same thing. Some of us have been very sick indeed to the point that our lives have come to a virtual standstill, whilst others remain as fit as a fiddle years down the line. To my mind, that fact in itself raises important questions that the mainstream has yet to answer. So, one would hope that through discussion here, we can each begin to fit together the pieces of our own HIV puzzle.

BB

moonchild493
October 2nd, 2009, 10:55 PM
BB,

You're welcome. We, of all people, should be a bit more understanding than most. My own problems are on the back burner the last few days. My grandson has been home sick (could well be the dread H1N1 since he's had a pretty high fever off and on and a bad cough). If this is the case, though, it can be quite mild, since he's basically felt well and been in good spirits. Then my cat came down with cystitis and is peeing blood if at all. Sigh. Does tend to take my mind off myself. Funny how the one who's supposed to have virtually no immune system is usually the last to get sick around here, at least with colds and flues and stuff. Just a few thoughts.

Take care of yourself.

Linda

StarZ
October 4th, 2009, 04:01 AM
Regarding Herpes all you have to do is heed the words of the Dissident Leader Luc Montanier regarding HIV, a robust immune system can fend off any random pathogen given strength and fortitude. Add to that what we know about micronutients, minerals and proteins plus natural antimicrobes etc.

Regarding asthma your sister may want to find someone like Dr Hamer of German New Medicine who says life trauma will have a health impact. Esp regarding asthma as I have received one good example of eradication by psychologist intervention. I am looking into it for my endless tonsilitis since childhood. Suppression of emotion may be the cause as in the case where asthma pump eventually found disposed and dust covered months after treatment. Heart and mind heath is critical too.

Linda, please keep us posted.

The issue of POPs persistent organic polutants Jeffrey Bland, Ph.D: Chronic Illness-What Works? Understanding Metabolic Detoxification (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-bland/chronic-illness-what-work_b_304048.html) and or individual tolerence levels has been over looked thus far. Anyone with a sibling with bite, food allergy etc must wonder why they themself do not react the with same.

Also it is too complicated to never go wrong, which explains all the sick negative people on the planet. At this point poz deaths are not high within the community, let alone in comparison with the non poz. Lets not exaggerate the problem of HIV, it is a big issue to the poz...

IMMichaelG
October 4th, 2009, 05:07 AM
Hi StarZ,

You said something very interesting in "Suppression of emotion may be the cause".

There is an old saying that "feelings that were buried alive never die".

Do they affect health? I am absolutely convinced of such and have been for years. The interesting thing about being cognizant of something, is that you start noticing it all around you. Kind of like buying a car and then you start noticing how many of the same model and same color car are all over the roads.

As far as recurrent tonsillitis, due to where it is happening, in the throat, likely has something to do with "feeling" an inability to speak up about something that you had experienced, witnessed, or been subjected to. You are likely right that it has to do with childhood, and if you search your memories, you can likely find exactly what event it is connected to.

Most humans have painful repressed memories kept in a file in their minds that I call the "do not ever open this file" file, because the mind believes that it would be too painful to ever open that file and end up reliving those extremely painful emotions again. So, we just file it, and then it seems to eat at us, both emotionally and often physically as well, from the inside out. Such seems to be at the core of much cancer and many other disease states.

However, if one gets the courage up to deal with and release painful suppressed emotional issues, it is fully important to allow oneself to fully remember and again feel the deep hurtful emotional pain that was stored away, for that is the only way to ultimately release it is by feeling it, and letting it go.

It can be very helpful, upon feeling the intensity of such emotionalized memories, after bringing them out into the open, to then look at them from a now adult point of view, and to understand that those who had caused the pain likely did so because they themselves were in the depths of their own pain at the time, and therefore, they could only share what they themselves had inside them at the time. Had they had love inside at that time, they would have shared love instead of the harmful painful emotions that they then inadvertently put upon an unsuspecting and innocent child.

By understanding that the perpetrators were in their own egoic and painful place, helps one to be forgiving of it, and thereby fully dissolves the pain away by understanding that those who perpetrated harms had also been harmed and likely they too just needed to be loved, but ultimately they did the best they could at the time with what they had going on, even if their best was disgustingly lacking of common sense, good judgement, or love and understanding.

So ultimately, it is possible, and I have done it myself, to fully dig out past moments of repressed suppressed emotional pain that is still being carried around, and to let it go and heal the damage that it caused then, and is likely still causing, and often even manifesting in physical dis-ease or illness. The cure seems to me to be fully getting back in touch with the harms, and then treating it with love and compassion, especially for ones own self, and ultimately for all others who were involved, who may or may not still even be among the physically living.

So thanks for bringing up another really good subject that can and often does deeply impact health and well being, even years and years after the original damage was sustained.

lightanddarkbalance
October 4th, 2009, 04:14 PM
Never forget the enormous impact of wrong diagnosis and or wrong treatment.

There is a large % of illnesses that are not real. They are labels given by doctors that are not supported by evidence. Common examples are cholestoral levels indicating heart disease, depression and anxiety as diseases( including in animals and little children ) by pass surgery, and moderate to serious colds being labeled as pneumonia in HIV positive victims.

Whether or not Buffalo Boys diagnosis of pneumonia is in fact correct or not can only be known by reviewing the facts of his individual circumstance.

What must be understand is how common it is to get a wrong diagnosis for all patients who out of ignorance use allopathic medicine as their primarly first choice of medical care rather than the last choice. Getting a wrong diagnosis is the rule not the exception with HIV positive victims who exist in the pure fantasy, high imagination, inane world of Aids specialization.

I am not talking about lab numbers in HIV false positive victims which are always 100% false diagnostic disease labels. The epidemic of wrong diagnosis I am refering to is based on mild to moderate symptoms of real illnesses that are exaggerated as very serious or mislabeled as a serious other illness that isn't there ( such as pneumonia with a moderate to serious ordinary cold )

One shocking example of just how wide spread and ludicrous is the practice, or rather the business of wrong diagnosis, is the current pandemic of non existent Swine Flu. What is being called Swine flu are just ordinary symptoms which exactly match regular flu as well as things like fatigue and headache. Everyone is being labeled Swine Flu based on ordinary symptoms. There is no test that is recognized as being able to diagnosis an H1N1 virus which is new and special. " Medical Devices, FDA May 2 - Fact Sheet For Patients: Understanding Swine Flu Influenza Kit Test Results ... * There are no FDA cleared or approved tests that can identify novel H1N1 flu virus." !!

Its all BULLSHIT ! -

Imagine how degenerate a society mut be to allow such an insidious monoploy of quack science, RX business men and media hucksters to attain such a degree of contempt for science and people.

Wrong treatment follows wrong diagnosis and with it the certain damage to a persons health. Wrong treatment ranges from prescibing drugs or surgery that is either totality unnecessary or different degrees of overkill. Since money is being earned the tendency to overtreat is high.

Topping the list of wrong treatments and overkill treatments is the HIV victims. Their situation conflated with the common shared disease with Allopathic Medical Doctors of Aquired Information Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS ) creates the perfect storm of wrong diagnosis and over treatment.

The one good thing in this otherwise tragic insane medical debacle is that sick people are not as sick as they think. Not at least in a natural way. There is often an iatrogenic ( Doctor created illness ) element to the problem. Often it is the dominant factor in understanding what has happening and planning how to get well.

Any plans of how to get well which is based on the continued use of Conventional Medicine Medicine in anything but emergencies is 100% certain to fall.

G Man
October 4th, 2009, 05:30 PM
I've got the answer:

The profit motive MUST be taken out of healthcare. It should not be a business of any kind, and nobody should be able to line their pockets by pushing drugs. If you are a private healthcare company, you must qualify as a non-profit. Take all the drug commercials off television. End the cartel and give people a chance to get well without someone having their hand out ready to prey on them like vultures.

whereistheproof
October 4th, 2009, 09:33 PM
the whole system must evolve.
oast revolutions resulted social security and health care managed by the people for the people. and there is nothing 'communist' about saying this - in the sense of what the soviet union represented.

old marxist-leninsts such as castro demonise capital and the profit motive. and that is their mistake. we need the profit motive. for the economy. as a driving force.

BUT the ethical premise of the profit motive is nothing else but greed. which is good in the market place. but it is not desirable where ethics need to take priority over the profit motive. which pisses capitalists off because it reduces their sphere of influence.

education, healthcare, social security, public transport, pensions - they cannot be left to the profit motive.

the same is true for money. money is a resource that needs to be managed in the interest for the greater public good. banks need to be either much better regulated or they need to be managed by the state. especially after the recent banking crisis. and in effect many countries have bought themselves into most major banks.

the same needs to happen in health care. big pharma is driven by profit. they have a direct interest in creating as many patients as possible taking their drugs - long term.

pharma - research in general - must be funded and managed by government aganecies that are not driven by profit. but instead by the desire to discover the truth in research and to provide products to a health care system based on need instead of profit.

leaving these areas to profit will still produce good results - as it has in the past, but there are too many casualties with this approach. we are among them. and so are those that die of heart attacks on stetins or those that have become long term addicts to barbiturates.

but unless education is reclaimed as a first step, we will not have the enlightened population required to effect the changes needed in a democracy that is not driven by lobbyists.

we have a long way to go. a very long way. and the longer we wait - the more violent that change is going to be.

cdm
October 4th, 2009, 10:08 PM
Dear Moonchild,

My sister has chronic asthma and the eastern medicine practitioner makes her worse. The western one did not fare very well either.



Has she tried arginine? All people are relieved by this amino-acid. She may also need some substances combating allergy. Had she done a lot of vaccination?

cdm
October 4th, 2009, 10:49 PM
This isn't so different to other viruses- I've already pointed out that herpes simplex seems to affect some people far more than it does others, and the 1918 flu epidemic wiped out millions of people but, for some reason, not all.

I don't know about you, but I beleive that viruses do exist but they don't always have the same impact on the people they infect.

In some respects, the dissident movement seems every bit as dogmatic as the mainstream whereby, unless you sign up 100% to the 'alternative' way of thinking then you're characterised as The Enemy; strange for people who consider themselves to be intelligent free-thinkers.

BB
in case you have not known it, there had been countries who did not have the money to buy the cartel vaccines of "typhus" and "influenza" and had not seen the "Spanish flu" in their territory. One of them was my country, Greece.. You may probably know that at that time there was not an isolation of the so called influenza virus, because the viruses would have not been seen for the first time, but more than a decade later. What was the ingredient of the "flu" vaccine then? (I think few people know, and at the same time few people knew how Pasteur made his contra -rabies vaccine which killed the postman) Anyway there are not only rumors that the vaccinations wiped out first the american army, and later the citizens of USA and other countries who believed the cartel myths. The army doctors lied, calling the vaccination side effects as "Spanish flue", and this created this big disaster. If they had told the truth, the vaccinations would not have been propagated by the cartel of Rockfeller. This is the reason that the lies create such huge catastrophes, like the AZT disaster in the eighties and nineties. Doctors must admit their mistakes, and must not try to hide them.

The knowledge of the cartel that there have been countries not having bought the flu vaccine and acted as control, these old days, is the reason of the modern "philanthropy" which urged the cartel to express its desire to supply poor countries with the swine flue vaccine, of today, cheaply. In order that there will be no control to prove their bad doings. You may find a recent article in new England medical journal (NEJM) confirming me.

Here is a relative article, although is not the best I suppose
The Spanish Influenza Epidemic of 1918 was caused by vaccinations---E. McBean (Swine Flu Expose) (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/sf1.html)

BuffaloBoy
October 5th, 2009, 11:29 PM
Never forget the enormous impact of wrong diagnosis and or wrong treatment.

There is a large % of illnesses that are not real. They are labels given by doctors that are not supported by evidence. Common examples are cholestoral levels indicating heart disease, depression and anxiety as diseases( including in animals and little children ) by pass surgery, and moderate to serious colds being labeled as pneumonia in HIV positive victims.

Whether or not Buffalo Boys diagnosis of pneumonia is in fact correct or not can only be known by reviewing the facts of his individual circumstance.

What must be understand is how common it is to get a wrong diagnosis for all patients who out of ignorance use allopathic medicine as their primarly first choice of medical care rather than the last choice. Getting a wrong diagnosis is the rule not the exception with HIV positive victims who exist in the pure fantasy, high imagination, inane world of Aids specialization.

I am not talking about lab numbers in HIV false positive victims which are always 100% false diagnostic disease labels. The epidemic of wrong diagnosis I am refering to is based on mild to moderate symptoms of real illnesses that are exaggerated as very serious or mislabeled as a serious other illness that isn't there ( such as pneumonia with a moderate to serious ordinary cold )

One shocking example of just how wide spread and ludicrous is the practice, or rather the business of wrong diagnosis, is the current pandemic of non existent Swine Flu. What is being called Swine flu are just ordinary symptoms which exactly match regular flu as well as things like fatigue and headache. Everyone is being labeled Swine Flu based on ordinary symptoms. There is no test that is recognized as being able to diagnosis an H1N1 virus which is new and special. " Medical Devices, FDA May 2 - Fact Sheet For Patients: Understanding Swine Flu Influenza Kit Test Results ... * There are no FDA cleared or approved tests that can identify novel H1N1 flu virus." !!

Its all BULLSHIT ! -

Imagine how degenerate a society mut be to allow such an insidious monoploy of quack science, RX business men and media hucksters to attain such a degree of contempt for science and people.

Wrong treatment follows wrong diagnosis and with it the certain damage to a persons health. Wrong treatment ranges from prescibing drugs or surgery that is either totality unnecessary or different degrees of overkill. Since money is being earned the tendency to overtreat is high.

Topping the list of wrong treatments and overkill treatments is the HIV victims. Their situation conflated with the common shared disease with Allopathic Medical Doctors of Aquired Information Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS ) creates the perfect storm of wrong diagnosis and over treatment.

The one good thing in this otherwise tragic insane medical debacle is that sick people are not as sick as they think. Not at least in a natural way. There is often an iatrogenic ( Doctor created illness ) element to the problem. Often it is the dominant factor in understanding what has happening and planning how to get well.

Any plans of how to get well which is based on the continued use of Conventional Medicine Medicine in anything but emergencies is 100% certain to fall.

Take it from me, when I've been sick with pneumonia it was far, far worse than a 'serious cold'. And remember, colds are viral so antibiotics do nothing for them, but when they were prescribed to me for my illness (bacteria induced), I began to feel much better in less than 24 hours.

BuffaloBoy
October 5th, 2009, 11:37 PM
BB
in case you have not known it, there had been countries who did not have the money to buy the cartel vaccines of "typhus" and "influenza" and had not seen the "Spanish flu" in their territory. One of them was my country, Greece.. You may probably know that at that time there was not an isolation of the so called influenza virus, because the viruses would have not been seen for the first time, but more than a decade later. What was the ingredient of the "flu" vaccine then? (I think few people know, and at the same time few people knew how Pasteur made his contra -rabies vaccine which killed the postman) Anyway there are not only rumors that the vaccinations wiped out first the american army, and later the citizens of USA and other countries who believed the cartel myths. The army doctors lied, calling the vaccination side effects as "Spanish flue", and this created this big disaster. If they had told the truth, the vaccinations would not have been propagated by the cartel of Rockfeller. This is the reason that the lies create such huge catastrophes, like the AZT disaster in the eighties and nineties. Doctors must admit their mistakes, and must not try to hide them.

The knowledge of the cartel that there have been countries not having bought the flu vaccine and acted as control, these old days, is the reason of the modern "philanthropy" which urged the cartel to express its desire to supply poor countries with the swine flue vaccine, of today, cheaply. In order that there will be no control to prove their bad doings. You may find a recent article in new England medical journal (NEJM) confirming me.

Here is a relative article, although is not the best I suppose
The Spanish Influenza Epidemic of 1918 was caused by vaccinations---E. McBean (Swine Flu Expose) (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/sf1.html)

I suppose you believe that the Black Death plague of the 14th Century was caused by vaccines too, do you?

lightanddarkbalance
October 6th, 2009, 12:31 AM
Buffalo Boy qoute

"Take it from me, when I've been sick with pneumonia it was far, far worse than a 'serious cold'. And remember, colds are viral so antibiotics do nothing for them, but when they were prescribed to me for my illness (bacteria induced), I began to feel much better in less than 24 hours"

Ok lets take it you who is the owner of the body - can you reconcile your statement that you began to feel much better in less than 24 hours - with your post # 13, which says it took you months to recover.

quote from your post #13 - "The first time I came down with it (pneumonia ) I was in the hospital for a week being fed antibiotics by IV, and it took me months to recover "

If you got overcame the pneumonia within a week or so with antibiotics, and felt much better in less than 24 hours after beginning treatmeat, then what were you so sick from that it took months longer to recover - recover from what. ?

BuffaloBoy
October 6th, 2009, 02:04 AM
Buffalo Boy qoute

"Take it from me, when I've been sick with pneumonia it was far, far worse than a 'serious cold'. And remember, colds are viral so antibiotics do nothing for them, but when they were prescribed to me for my illness (bacteria induced), I began to feel much better in less than 24 hours"

Ok lets take it you who is the owner of the body - can you reconcile your statement that you began to feel much better in less than 24 hours - with your post # 13, which says it took you months to recover.

quote from your post #13 - "The first time I came down with it (pneumonia ) I was in the hospital for a week being fed antibiotics by IV, and it took me months to recover "

If you got overcame the pneumonia within a week or so with antibiotics, and felt much better in less than 24 hours after beginning treatmeat, then what were you so sick from that it took months longer to recover - recover from what. ?

My extreme symptons of pneumonia, a very high fever, headache, and unquenchable thirst/dry mouth, began to recede very quickly upon administration of antibiotics, but since the infection had been in my body for some time (and I'd been unable to seek any medical help as I was not in my home country when I fell ill), it took its toll on my system and that is why it took me so long to get back to normal.

lightanddarkbalance
October 6th, 2009, 04:06 AM
Quote Buffalo Boy,

"My extreme symptons of pneumonia, a very high fever, headache, and unquenchable thirst/dry mouth, began to recede very quickly upon administration of antibiotics, but since the infection had been in my body for some time (and I'd been unable to seek any medical help as I was not in my home country when I fell ill), it took its toll on my system and that is why it took me so long to get back to normal]"

I'd be interested to find out how it is that you believe that the months of recovery it took you to feel better was because of an infection you had but got ride of and not the antibiotics you were given.

Can you also share how it is that you where very sick in a foreign country and couldn't, or wouldn't get treatment until you returned home to England. Pneumonia is not uncommon and the standard antibiotics used to treat it are available nearly everywhere. Were there no doctors in the country were you were (" I'd been unable to seek any medical help as I was not in my country") or are you perhaps a mountaineer and were far away from any civilization ?

The more that is known about you the more the story changes. First you were a person in excellent health that all of a sudden got pneumonia without any known health problems but the dreaded HIV viurs. Then you mention drinking. Now it appears that you had pneumonia that went untreated for a good period of time because you were in a foreign country. It is foreign to logic how and why a person can decline treatment for serious pneumonia because they are away from home.... What is missing in this picture ?

BuffaloBoy
October 6th, 2009, 08:43 PM
Quote Buffalo Boy,

"My extreme symptons of pneumonia, a very high fever, headache, and unquenchable thirst/dry mouth, began to recede very quickly upon administration of antibiotics, but since the infection had been in my body for some time (and I'd been unable to seek any medical help as I was not in my home country when I fell ill), it took its toll on my system and that is why it took me so long to get back to normal]"

I'd be interested to find out how it is that you believe that the months of recovery it took you to feel better was because of an infection you had but got ride of and not the antibiotics you were given.

Can you also share how it is that you where very sick in a foreign country and couldn't, or wouldn't get treatment until you returned home to England. Pneumonia is not uncommon and the standard antibiotics used to treat it are available nearly everywhere. Were there no doctors in the country were you were (" I'd been unable to seek any medical help as I was not in my country") or are you perhaps a mountaineer and were far away from any civilization ?

The more that is known about you the more the story changes. First you were a person in excellent health that all of a sudden got pneumonia without any known health problems but the dreaded HIV viurs. Then you mention drinking. Now it appears that you had pneumonia that went untreated for a good period of time because you were in a foreign country. It is foreign to logic how and why a person can decline treatment for serious pneumonia because they are away from home.... What is missing in this picture ?

This is not a court and I'm not on trial. You might want to consider changing your tone.

G Man
October 6th, 2009, 09:04 PM
My god I created a monster here with this thread.

BuffaloBoy
October 6th, 2009, 10:38 PM
My god I created a monster here with this thread.


I wouldn't say you have 'created a monster' but it has shown a rather unappealing side to some of the people that post here. They are the ones that are so caught up in their own beliefs - beliefs they often try and pass off as fact - that they are unable to give any weight to other peoples experiences.

lightanddarkbalance
October 6th, 2009, 11:53 PM
Buffalo Boy - you are right I should change my tone. You've had enough of a chance to be treated honorably. Now there is clear record of your statements to make a strong case against you in the court of public opinion.

Your nasty attitude when confronted with the contradictions of your personal history, as well you beliefs without substance on health issues, is contained within this thread for all to read.

Instead of answering questions based on the rather impossible story you are telling you evaded answering and instead attacked the questioneer. Trying to change the subject away from your statements and attacking the messenger makes things look even worse.

I will restate the questions because the issue you have raised is important. Whether or not you have the intregity to answer is not my problem. This is for the audience. I do however enjoy sticking to the facts and exposing hyprocrites at the same time. ( my tone has changed - you have earned it )

You have portrayed youself as someone who was very healthy who was never sick except with a cold or two a year. You got an HIV positive diagnosis but had no illness. Then all of sudden you got pneumonia which was treated with IV antibiotics. The pneumonia cleared up quickly but it took you months to recover. You then suffered 2 more bouts of pneumonia which was again treated with antibiotics.

You where asked by me why you assumed that the months it took to recover from the first pneumonia, was from pneumonia, and not antibiotics. Your answer evaded the question and attacked the questioneer. The question is repeated.

New and rather amazing information emerged concering your portrayal of yourself as very healthy person who all of sudden had serious pneumonia. A mystery that you suspect might be from the dreaded HIV product that you were sold. You stated you had to delay treatment of pneumonia because you were out of the country. When you finally did get treatment you were extremely sick. I found it amazing to find out that someone could have pneumonia but not get treated because they were away from home. I asked the very healthy person who all of sudden got sick out of nowhere to clarify how they can explain not getting treated for a worsening and serious pneumonia condition because they were not at home. This is frankly unbelievable.

At this point, in the discussion you are evading, your orginal story doesn't hold up. I believe your claim of being very healthy is incorrect. I also believe that there where good reasons why you got pneumonia the first time and hiv is not one of them. I believe the reason it took you months to recover from pneumonia treated with IV antibiotics was the damage caused by antibiotics.

People reading these posts should not be mislead with reports by individuals whose stories are not supported by their own facts. Everyone can rest assured that an honorable person would not hesitate to clarify their own story when asked to explain contradictory information.

G Man
October 7th, 2009, 12:23 AM
I wouldn't say you have 'created a monster' but it has shown a rather unappealing side to some of the people that post here. They are the ones that are so caught up in their own beliefs - beliefs they often try and pass off as fact - that they are unable to give any weight to other peoples experiences.

Uhhhh.....Not to be rude, but that kind of sounds like you. The main problem I had was the same one that Lightanddark had. The fact that you went into attack mode instead of continuing the debate and answering some questions. At that point there is no point in continuing the discussion.

StarZ
October 7th, 2009, 01:13 AM
Black plage was an exotic pathogem ie it was new to the poor urban, preindustrial Brits. Where it came from the people had evolved with, and were definitely preindustrial. There is no corresponding reports of an 'outbreack' (applied cautiously) in the place from wence those ships came. Undoubtedly the natives of that far away place had resistence more prevelant in their society and also would not have been surprised by a ring of roses, an expanding pink inflamation that became (lymphnodes?) black. Undoubtely they had a very basic (applied cautiously/ read primitive lol ie not RX) preparation that was wiping the bubons out of the body.

This s nothing like flu, HIV or the increasing levels of late onset autism (peri vax)

BuffaloBoy
October 7th, 2009, 10:01 AM
Lightanddarkbalance:

People with your inflexible attitude and hectoring tone really do bring the whole dissident movement down. You've leapt to conclusions (which is what we often accuse the orthodoxy of doing), just because things don't happen to jibe with your seemingly limited view and experiences.

My story is now 'impossible' (it isn't), and I, according to you who has never even met me, am 'inaccurate' in claiming that I had always been healthy (I was). Your assertions have become ever more desperate and absurd because, clearly, you're not in a position to be making them and you simply don't know what you're talking about. This is a sun-bright example of what is usually known as 'making it up as you go along'.

Fortunately, however, your clangers are now so glaring that I'm comfortable in the knowledge that I won't be alone in being able to spot them at a hundred paces.

quyenbigbang
October 7th, 2009, 11:21 AM
Dear Buffalo boy,

I suggest you consider a watercure as a preventive measure for your problem. My mom is able to nurture my dad up from a mixture of water, salt and sugar (the one they used for diarrhea) and pleanty of fruit, and he's had a severe bout of dengue fever. She only use antibiotics at the very end of his illness to get rid of the infection. You can try to search for watercure on the net. It may sound like commonsense but it's really hard to take the average 2litre of pure water a day, and if you drink any other kind of beverage, you have to ad equal amount of water on top of that.

Also I suggest you switch your salt intake to sea salt and start your day with a mixture of sea salt and water (1/4 tsp to 1 litre if I remember correctly). If your pneumonia is severe, that means it's too late and you have to get rid of it fast,w whatever works. However, for your prolong tireness and lack of energy and unwell feeling, this can be an cheap, side-effect free preventive problem. After all, it's just water and a little bit of salt. And I have to stress again that you've gotta give up every other type of beverage, actually will save you some expense.

Regards and get well.

QUyen

cdm
October 7th, 2009, 02:25 PM
I suppose you believe that the Black Death plague of the 14th Century was caused by vaccines too, do you?

There had been not any so much dangerous flue epidemic except the so-called Spanish. Does this not intrigue you?
Plague was an epidemic that was based mainly on living conditions and host-reservoir interactions easily attained due to construction of houses in medieval cities etc, at that era, and not so much by direct contamination from one another. There is always something else that pollutes individuals. The same applied to cholera, with water sanitation and to the AIDS victims with the gay-bar drug over-consumption, although the AIDS matter is much more complicated. The pollution might be microbial or chemical.

lightanddarkbalance
October 7th, 2009, 05:07 PM
Buffalo Boy - again you have not addressed any of the facts which call your creditability into question. It is your assumptions, and your selective presentation of your case, not your symptoms that I am discussing. You made 3 assumptions which challenged the dissident view that HIV has nothing whatsoever with any health problems and that drugs are the key important factor behind getting sick.

The 3 assumptions are - 1- that you were very healthy before getting pneumonia 2- that antibiotics did not play a significant role in your health decline since, 3- that the only known risk factor left was HIV.

All three of these guesses on your part are subject to discussion with you or without you. I had thought that personal intregrity and honor would not allow you run from the debate but so far you have used evastive tactics to not discuss the contradictions in your case. First you attached the messenger. Then you restort not to discussion of the facts but to philosphy.

A person reporting serious recurrent pneumonia in a very healthy person who has no none health risks but HIV on a dissident disscussion board is a worthy topic to debate.

Already without even interviewing you the few brief statement of facts made by you are a good basis why your assumptions are the opposite of reality.

First - of the hundreds of thousands of pneumonia cases in Britian in any given year, 99% of them are not western blot reactive. Each person has their own history and reasons for getting sick. In some rare cases of people with pneumonia the reasons why they got ill could be hard to ascertain. HIV as a cause is nothing more than magical thinking.

Buffalo Boy claims to have been previously very healthy. First the label previous healthy has been attached to some very unhealthy people. In Los Angeles in 1981 the first 5 Aids cases mere reported by the incomparable incompetent Dr. Gottlieb as all being previously healthy. In fact they all had shocking histories of illness. Recently Michael Jackson emaciated, drug addicted, chronically sleep deprived was declared by the medical examiner to be in good health. Claims of being healthy are very suspect to say the least.

What we know already, without any interview or examination about Buffalo Boys health, just from the few facts added by him in some posts make the assumption of previously healthy very suspect. Declining to discuss the conflicting facts of his story supports my arguement that all is not as assumed.

Being away from home in a foreign country and getting pneumonia but not getting treatment although very ill until returning home, with the reason given because of not being home, is very hard to understand. It questions the credibility of a persons judgement. The same judgement that assumes and declares themselves healthy and declines to answer a question about this on a discussion group.

We know that drinking has now been cut back. Cut back and not completely stopped ? After 3 pneumonia's and great concern for ones health our subject decides to continue drinking. No doubt an extention of a healthy persons lifestyle and habits.

Taking probiotics for one month -and then stopping ? The relationship between antibiotics and serious damage to health is well known. Anyone who must make important health choices would know this. One month of probiotics is poor judgement.

After the first pneumonia it took months to recover. Its assumed that the long recover was because of the infection taking a toll on the body. However the use of antibiotics explains prolonged weaknes much better and antibiotic damage, and along with possible life style choices like drinking, not HIV, also explains the recourance of 2 more pneumonias and declining health . When asked why the assumption of prolonged weakness was from an infection that was long gone and not the damage form antibiotics Buffalo Boy attached the questioneer.

The discussion continues. I assume that the owner of this body was not fine and healthy as he believed. That much has been omitted from the story. And that dissident reality pointing to the serious dangers of antibiotics and the non role of HIV is strengthened by this example.



"People with your inflexible attitude and hectoring tone really do bring the whole dissident movement down. You've leapt to conclusions (which is what we often accuse the orthodoxy of doing), just because things don't happen to jibe with your seemingly limited view and experiences.

My story is now 'impossible' (it isn't), and I, according to you who has never even met me, am 'inaccurate' in claiming that I had always been healthy (I was). Your assertions have become ever more desperate and absurd because, clearly, you're not in a position to be making them and you simply don't know what you're talking about. This is a sun-bright example of what is usually known as 'making it up as you go along'.

Fortunately, however, your clangers are now so glaring that I'm comfortable in the knowledge that I won't be alone in being able to spot them at a hundred paces."

G Man
October 7th, 2009, 05:42 PM
Lightanddark,

I've got to hand it to you, you've addressed just about everything Buffaloboy has put out there. Not saying you're right about everything, but you've made some very good arguments to explain his situation. I guess it's up to him whether he wants to listen or keep down the same road.

I hope he realizes you and others are only here to help. Why else would you spend the time trying, even in the face of all the insults?

BuffaloBoy
October 7th, 2009, 09:05 PM
I stated that I was healthy but who ever really knows what's happening in our bodies? My statement was based on the fact that over the last 10 years of work I've taken no more than 4 days of sick - that's 4 days off sick in a decade. Now, in the UK, if memory serves correctly, the last study I saw showed that sick days ran at an average of around 5 days per year in the private sector, and around 7/8 per year in the public sector. And just before you say anything, one of my days was taken off for jet lag, another for backache and the remaining two days for ailments that I can no longer recall.

So, just to re-iterate that is 4 days off sick in 10 years.

Now that fact to me illustrates that I was in pretty decent shape until last year. Even if there was something amiss with my health, which I concede there could well have been, it never ailed me enough to either warrant treatment, or take endless time off work. By any measure, that would be considered pretty damn healthy.

As for last year's first bout of pneumonia, well, nothing's quite as straightforward as you might like it to be. I'd been backpacking in Burma, which proved to be rather more difficult than I'd imagined - and I imagined it would not be a walk in the park. Finding decent (clean) accomodation was a nightmare, eating healthily was a struggle especially as I'm a strict vegetarian, and few menus were in English. On top of that, I was doing very long journeys - 24 hours or more- on 1970s buses; people are packed in around you, and the Burmese habit of chewing and spitting out Betel nuts is regarded as the norm, even in close confines. In Burma, just getting a cup of afternoon tea in a cafe can be a rather traumatic experience, as it's the norm for rats to skuttle into the shop and dart around your feet - much to the amusement of the locals. Whatever charms the country has, it's probably fair to say that hygiene isn't too high up on anyone's list.

Once the Burma trip was over, I flew back to Bangkok and caught a bus and ferry down to one the islands. Compared to the difficulties of Burma, returning to Thailand was like being in paradise. However, on my last night on Koh Samet, I started to sneeze and suddenly felt quite cold which I found odd. I returned to my room and fell into a deep sleep. When I awoke the next day I felt dreadful, but needed to get back to Bangkok by ferry and bus, which I did. I went to my guesthouse and crashed out for the best part of 18 hours, waking up in drenching sweats, and not entirely lucid. Eventually, I felt slightly better and went to visit a pharmacy. I told the pharmacist there my symptons and she said that I had a severe case of food poisoning and needed to avoid eating anything and to drink as much water as possible.

So, armed with several bottles of water and paracetmol, I returned to my guest house and fell back into the pattern of deep sleep, waking up confused in pools of sweat, and then losing consciousness again. A few hours later, feeling as if I was at death's door, I somehow managed to get to the airport and make it onto my prebooked return flight to the UK. The day after arriving home, I visited my GP who sent me of for tests to see if I'd contracted some sort of tropical disease, as well as getting an x-ray to see if there was evidence of a chest infection. The woman who conducted these tests told me that I looked awful and should just go straight to emergency. Which I did. When I woke up, I discovered that I was being adminstered with IV antibiotics, and was told by doctors that I was 'very sick indeed', had been 'close to death' and would need to stay in hospital for a week.

So, there you have it. That's the long version of my first bout of pneumonia. I would just like to point out that I've never suffered from severe food poisoning before, so when I was told by the pharmacist in Bangkok that that is what was wrong with me, I took her pretty much at face value. Especially since, having just come back from Burma, I'd experienced unhygeinic, and incredibly gruelling conditions, on the road, so it sort of made sense that my system would be run down, and thus susceptible to food bugs. It's also worth noting that there was only about a day and half between getting back from Koh Samet and my flight to London, so I decided that it would probably be better to wait to seek full medical attention back home, rather than in Thailand. On top of all of this, as you might have gathered, I was travelling on my own, and what with the effects of my illness, I couldn't think straight, so that was also a factor in not seeking treatment.

As for the alcohol, it's pretty much down to the odd glass of wine with dinner and friends occasionally, - a couple of times a month- not going out and getting blind drunk every week.

Lightanddarkbalance : I'm certain that none of this will answer your barking questions satifactorily, but at least those who are of a more reasonable mind will get a better understanding of the sequence of events as they actually happened, rather than being fooled into following your 'haven't got a clue' assumptions.

John Bleau
October 7th, 2009, 11:50 PM
I can vouch for BuffaloBoy's claims of poor hygiene in that part of the world. I was in India for 4 months in 1998 and had the runs half the time - and Burma is third world compared to India. However, BB's latest post pretty well rules out HIV as the only known risk factor left.

When I returned from India, I came with some diarrhea-causing parasite that supposedly required a treatment that had serious side effects. I was told that I was better off living with it. Seven months later, a biologist friend told me to try garlic as it's notoriously effective in getting rid of bad bacteria and maintaining good bacteria. I took about an ounce of raw garlic (gag!!!) and the problem cleared up overnight. Had I been HIV+, I imagine the "experts" would have blamed it on that and would have tried to put me on some ARV regimen.

I have not taken any antibiotics since India (even after being assaulted by a deer tick (sometimes carrier of lyme disease)), so as to preserve my hard-won India intestinal flora.

Incidentally, it was when I was in India that someone convinced me to examine the dissident position, which I did a year later. Prior to that, I unquestioningly accepted the mainstream perspective.

lightanddarkbalance
October 8th, 2009, 12:42 AM
Thank you Buffalo Boy for kindly providing these valuable details.

I have carefully read and re read what happened to you over the last few days of your trip before returning to England and being told you were very ill and near death. None of your report mentions any symptoms of respiratory illness. Although I am sure with the condition you had, whether it was food poisoning or a tropical infection, that there must have been some respiratory involvement, your description does not tally with any type of pneumonia I have ever heard of.

Pneumonia goes through developmental stages over time. From everything I have ever known the development of worsening pneumonia progresses over stages which have greater degrees of respiratory distress. Each stage has clear symptoms and worsens over time into the next stage. It takes time. I have never heard of a pneumonia that in 3 or 4 days went from zero to a sneeze and feeling cold to all of a sudden being near death. Never.

Can anyone reconcile these facts with any known case of pneumonia ?

The details mention feeling various symptoms but nothing about respiratory distress. Food posioning maybe - tropical infection maybe. But pneumonia ?

From Buffalo Boys detailed and thoughtful post it appears that he has a history which might be correctly characterized as a healthy person. What happened in Asia with the rats, sanitation, exhaustion, tropical climate, airplane cabin air, tropical foods, and exhaustion from hiking is anybodies guess. But of all the possible guesses the guess that callis this pneumonia is one guess that escapes my understanding. Ever the magical omnipresent spirit like HIV can not lay claim to such a feat as this lightning zero symptoms to near death in 4 days.

The story is even more interesting now than before. What was orginally really wrong with Buffalo Boy before he was pumped up with 7 days of antibiotics ? What happened from that treatment and since then with the addition of other antibiotics ? Is their a special very rare strain of the dreaded HIV virus capable of creating a pneumonia that goes from a sneeze to near death in never before recording breaking time ? Does HIV lead to repeated pneumonias only in the presence of antibiotic treatments ? Is there a special strain of HIV that inclines one to food poisoning and tropical infections in Asia ? Does HiV have a contagious mental meme that transmits through psychic channels to medical doctors which infects them with diagnostic incompetence where anything and everything, including tropical infections and food poisoning, are automatically transformed into an Aids defining OI. Most importantly, is there a strain of HIV that makes a person unaware and not able to see that everything is fully understandable regarding health risks, personal history, the dangers of drug use and the absolute non existence of HIV as a factor.

What a great story - Buffalo Boy, Good luck - your are a lot healthier than you think. You must be careful what you believe. What you believe will create your choices. Your body can handle many more trips to Asia, although less rats and lousy food would be wise. A much greater danger than the Asian wilds is the corporate jungle with those antibiotics, T cells tests and Mds.

* By the way a vegetarian diet is in my opinion a bad diet. It is weak in high quality nutrient dense foods which are proteins and fats. Once the intestinal flora has sustained major damage from antibiotics carbohydrates become a fuel for the growth of the bad bacteria that have colonized the intestines as a result of the antibiotics. A vegetarian diets tends to be high in carbs and are often very high in carbs. Such foods can prevent recovery and even make a person much worse. - High fat - moderate protein - low to very low carbs - seems to be best.



I stated that I was healthy but who ever really knows what's happening in our bodies? My statement was based on the fact that over the last 10 years of work I've taken no more than 4 days of sick - that's 4 days off sick in a decade. Now, in the UK, if memory serves correctly, the last study I saw showed that sick days ran at an average of around 5 days per year in the private sector, and around 7/8 per year in the public sector. And just before you say anything, one of my days was taken off for jet lag, another for backache and the remaining two days for ailments that I can no longer recall.

So, just to re-iterate that is 4 days off sick in 10 years.

Now that fact to me illustrates that I was in pretty decent shape until last year. Even if there was something amiss with my health, which I concede there could well have been, it never ailed me enough to either warrant treatment, or take endless time off work. By any measure, that would be considered pretty damn healthy.

As for last year's first bout of pneumonia, well, nothing's quite as straightforward as you might like it to be. I'd been backpacking in Burma, which proved to be rather more difficult than I'd imagined - and I imagined it would not be a walk in the park. Finding decent (clean) accomodation was a nightmare, eating healthily was a struggle especially as I'm a strict vegetarian, and few menus were in English. On top of that, I was doing very long journeys - 24 hours or more- on 1970s buses; people are packed in around you, and the Burmese habit of chewing and spitting out Betel nuts is regarded as the norm, even in close confines. In Burma, just getting a cup of afternoon tea in a cafe can be a rather traumatic experience, as it's the norm for rats to skuttle into the shop and dart around your feet - much to the amusement of the locals. Whatever charms the country has, it's probably fair to say that hygiene isn't too high up on anyone's list.

Once the Burma trip was over, I flew back to Bangkok and caught a bus and ferry down to one the islands. Compared to the difficulties of Burma, returning to Thailand was like being in paradise. However, on my last night on Koh Samet, I started to sneeze and suddenly felt quite cold which I found odd. I returned to my room and fell into a deep sleep. When I awoke the next day I felt dreadful, but needed to get back to Bangkok by ferry and bus, which I did. I went to my guesthouse and crashed out for the best part of 18 hours, waking up in drenching sweats, and not entirely lucid. Eventually, I felt slightly better and went to visit a pharmacy. I told the pharmacist there my symptons and she said that I had a severe case of food poisoning and needed to avoid eating anything and to drink as much water as possible.

So, armed with several bottles of water and paracetmol, I returned to my guest house and fell back into the pattern of deep sleep, waking up confused in pools of sweat, and then losing consciousness again. A few hours later, feeling as if I was at death's door, I somehow managed to get to the airport and make it onto my prebooked return flight to the UK. The day after arriving home, I visited my GP who sent me of for tests to see if I'd contracted some sort of tropical disease, as well as getting an x-ray to see if there was evidence of a chest infection. The woman who conducted these tests told me that I looked awful and should just go straight to emergency. Which I did. When I woke up, I discovered that I was being adminstered with IV antibiotics, and was told by doctors that I was 'very sick indeed', had been 'close to death' and would need to stay in hospital for a week.

So, there you have it. That's the long version of my first bout of pneumonia. I would just like to point out that I've never suffered from severe food poisoning before, so when I was told by the pharmacist in Bangkok that that is what was wrong with me, I took her pretty much at face value. Especially since, having just come back from Burma, I'd experienced unhygeinic, and incredibly gruelling conditions, on the road, so it sort of made sense that my system would be run down, and thus susceptible to food bugs. It's also worth noting that there was only about a day and half between getting back from Koh Samet and my flight to London, so I decided that it would probably be better to wait to seek full medical attention back home, rather than in Thailand. On top of all of this, as you might have gathered, I was travelling on my own, and what with the effects of my illness, I couldn't think straight, so that was also a factor in not seeking treatment.

As for the alcohol, it's pretty much down to the odd glass of wine with dinner and friends occasionally, - a couple of times a month- not going out and getting blind drunk every week.

Lightanddarkbalance : I'm certain that none of this will answer your barking questions satifactorily, but at least those who are of a more reasonable mind will get a better understanding of the sequence of events as they actually happened, rather than being fooled into following your 'haven't got a clue' assumptions.

BuffaloBoy
October 8th, 2009, 04:13 AM
Just to clarify a couple of points:

1) My symptons in the order they appeared were sneezing, loss of appetite, the shivers, high fever, extreme thirst, fatigue, diarrhea, headache, light sensitivity.

2) I wouldn't say my diet is 'very high in carbs'. I've never had a huge appetite so I usually skip bulky carb-rich foods which tend to make me feel full too quickly, in favour of lots of vegetables, cheese and yoghurts.

lightanddarkbalance
October 8th, 2009, 06:33 AM
Buffalo Boy - Clarification is crucial isn't it. Thanks for yours.

There is nothing about these symptoms that really match pneumonia. Plus the time period of 3 or 4 days makes it untentable. The lack of respiratory symptoms combined with very breif time period is compelling clarification. What do you think ?

Have you ever heard of anyone having a pneumonia like this ? If you personally haven't ever heard of a pneumonia like this can you find on the internet or from discussion with anyone a case of pneumonia that had similar symptoms and a similar very brief time frame from nothing to such severe intense symptoms. I'd like to know what you find. Food poisoning or various tropical infections and god knows what Burma bug type things would produce many matches.

Did the medical people involved know you were western blot positive
( HIV positive ) if so at point ?

From your narrative it seems that you where just rushed into the emergency room before getting test results back and lost consciousness and then woke up to discover you were being given IV antibiotics. Is this correct ?

When were you told this this was pneumonia and by which doctor.

Can I ask you what where your symptoms when you had the second and third pneumonia diagnosis. Where you on any RX drugs after the IV ended and the second pneumonia diagnosis - or between the second and third.

On diet - the best type of vegetarian diet is the high vegetables with cheese and yogurt you follow. However that may not be the case after having your intestinal flora destroyed. Milk products can be very reactive for some people. The sugars in milk products can be a big problem. After intense antibiotic damage person a person can have a different digestive system than they had before. Higher sugar foods, including milk sugars, and even certain yogurts, can become fuel for bad bacteria. You now might want to try to review diet things.

Good luck and keep clarifying.


QUOTE=BuffaloBoy;36500]Just to clarify a couple of points:

1) My symptons in the order they appeared were sneezing, loss of appetite, the shivers, high fever, extreme thirst, fatigue, diarrhea, headache, light sensitivity.

2) I wouldn't say my diet is 'very high in carbs'. I've never had a huge appetite so I usually skip bulky carb-rich foods which tend to make me feel full too quickly, in favour of lots of vegetables, cheese and yoghurts.[/QUOTE]

StarZ
October 8th, 2009, 06:40 AM
Overkill!
The British Drs assumed the worst because you had travelled and acted in an over enthusiastic way leaving you to mop up the mess for years to come.

yangming
October 8th, 2009, 08:35 AM
Buffalo,
I don't want doubt about your sickness. I'm someone who had already 3 times pneumonia and from the symptoms you describe i can only share 3 : loss of appetite, fever, and fatigue...but it took me two weeks to arrive to that ...I never got so fast sick as you did. But the most important problem was that i couldn't breath well....it was like I could not put air in my lungs. I have being in Burma also....your trip sound very ...indiana Jones. And for thailand...they have a very good and cheap medical systeme. I know, for example, many foreigners go to Thailand looking for medical attention because in USA or australia it's too expensive.
( By the way if i don't remember wrong in Koh samet you also have a medical service for emergencies....but bkk it's so close...)

BuffaloBoy
October 8th, 2009, 08:37 AM
I should just add that I was a little surprised that I had pneumonia given my symptoms - I was expecting, or perhaps hoping, it would be something exotically tropical.

However, it is worth pointing out that I've seen the chest x-ray that was done at the time, and there was without any shadow of a doubt, a very advanced respiratory infection; the whole of the lung area, which in a healthy person will show up as dark, was clouded white.

They also took a sputum sample to culture bacteria and this turned out to be streptococcus pneumoniae.

At no time did I divulge my HIV positive status. I was asked to take an HIV test because '...young people (I was 37) with pneumonia are far more likely to be positive and it would be better to start treatment straight away since the HIV drugs are so good now'.

However a) I'd already had a positive diagnosis 3 years earlier and b) did not not want to come under any pressure to go on ARVs. It's been my strict policy to never disclose my HIV status in medical settings so that I can be sure I'm being assessed like anyone else would be, rather than as an 'AIDS patient' where anything and everything would be put down to the fact that I'm HIV positive and not on combination therapy.

The curious thing is, is that when I first contracted pneumonia, I found out that at the same time, a friend of a friend, who is straight, and not HIV positive, had also been rushed into hospital with the very same symptoms. I spoke to him about it sometime after the fact and it sounded at least as if our illness was pretty much identical and was diagnosed and treated in the same way - with IV antibios. That in itself does prove that anyone can get it, although to the best of my knowledge he has only had it on that one occasion.

When I've suffered from pnuemonia since my first bout, my symptoms have been a high temperature that wakes me during the night, severe thirst and fatigue.

As for my diet...hmmm....the trouble is I'm rather on the slight side (more so since illness)and I need to get fats from somewhere, so dairy is the best option. I've had vegan phases but I end up losing a lot of weight very quickly, and lose energy too. I could not eat meat and fish again having been a vegetarian since I was a teenager, so unless you're aware of high fat non-dairy foods that I don't know about it's difficult to see how I could further modify my diet.

BuffaloBoy
October 8th, 2009, 09:43 AM
Buffalo,
I don't want doubt about your sickness. I'm someone who had already 3 times pneumonia and from the symptoms you describe i can only share 3 : loss of appetite, fever, and fatigue...but it took me two weeks to arrive to that ...I never got so fast sick as you did. But the most important problem was that i couldn't breath well....it was like I could not put air in my lungs. I have being in Burma also....your trip sound very ...indiana Jones. And for thailand...they have a very good and cheap medical systeme. I know, for example, many foreigners go to Thailand looking for medical attention because in USA or australia it's too expensive.
( By the way if i don't remember wrong in Koh samet you also have a medical service for emergencies....but bkk it's so close...)


It is possible that I was coming down with pneumonia longer than I was actually aware, given the conditions in Burma; I sort of got used to not really eating much and feeling quite tired which could all have been the onset of pneumonia.

I'm aware that the healthcare system is very good in Thailand - I've been to the country many times. But as I said in my earlier post, given the diagnosis of food poisoning, the limited time available in BKK before catching my homeward flight, and the fact that I was on my own, made me decide that I might as well wait until I got home to have it investigated fully. In retrospect, I believe I made the right decision.

lightanddarkbalance
October 8th, 2009, 05:06 PM
I am happy to tell you didn't have pneumonia. There is no way that the absense of respiratory symptoms and the lightening brief time period can be called a very serious pneumonia.

Do you understand ? Unless you can take a strong revised position on this topic and deconstruct assumptions you are living in illusion. Your posts show a literate intelligent reflective person. You should be able to examine this.

Concerning the conclusion of the meaning of the chest x-ray and spectum sample these are no doubt, with the absense of respiratory symptoms, creative interperation of the worst type. There are many reasons for diagnostic test results and many interperations of what they mean. Don't be fooled that this is a hard science it is far from it. Wrong diagnosis accounts for a huge percentage of diseases that are discovered by "divination".

Knowing of another person who was also misdiagnosed in no way can be considered an answer to the question - how can there be pneumonia without serious respiratory symptoms. No need to go to school to find out - its simple - without serious respiratory symptoms there can't be pneumonia.

Your symptoms of high fever, fatigue and thrist the second and third time in the absense of serious respiratory symptoms sounds like what ? - sounds like a fever and fatigue.

Before being swept into a bad dream manufactured by false assumptions and very real damaging antibiotic treatments your better intelligence had it right in the beginning when you said "I was a little surprised I had pneumonia given my symptoms - I was expecting, or perhaps hoping it would be something exotically tropical " -

Your future should have good health once the antibiotic damage is repaired. Then you will be able to make a similar statement of understanding like you made that preceeded this bad dream of diagnostic assumptions and iatrogenic disease. Some time in the future, hopefully the near future, you should be saying with confidence "I was shocked and surprised to realize that I didn't have pneumonia and didn't understand the effects of antibiotics, I am completely pissed off at the doctors whom I ASSUMED were competent"

Here's a challenge for you and an offer - explain how there can be pneumonia without respiratory symptoms and win a homeopathic first aid kit for tropical infections and food poisoning for travelers to Asia. You'll need it for your next trip. The offer is good till Jan 1. If you loss you win big.

BuffaloBoy
October 11th, 2009, 11:50 AM
You say there weren't respiratory symptoms but as I've said, the lung X ray was far from normal, so there was obviously a respiratory issue.

Remember too, that the hospital also cultured a sputum sample and the result came back as streptococcus pneumoniae positive.

lightanddarkbalance
October 11th, 2009, 11:57 PM
You say there weren't respiratory symptoms but as I've said, the lung X ray was far from normal, so there was obviously a respiratory issue.

Remember too, that the hospital also cultured a sputum sample and the result came back as streptococcus pneumoniae positive.


You had no respiratory symptoms for very good reasons. An Xay is not a symptom. It is a test using technology which carries a great burden of uncertainty in making a correct or incorrect interperation.

In Aquired Information Deficiency Syndrome ( AIDS ) patients are supposed to know how often the tests they are given are in question or the interpretative factor could form of wild guessing. Doctors who are infected with the Syndrome play along as if its a science and that they are scientists.

Below is a list of a few of papers which discuss the unreliability of Xrays in diagnosing pneumonia. There are numerous problems in making a pneumonia diagnosis in people who actually do have real respiratory symptoms. There is no problem in eliminating pneumonia completely in someone who has no respiratory symptoms.

*Unless clinical symptoms are the primary focus*, lab tests are very dubiuos at best. Of the many possible explanations and guesses for the generalized abnormal features on an Xray, pneumonia in a person without respiratory symptoms, should be counted out. Of course.

The same dubious uncertainies are true of blood work. Having some strep is not the same as strep causing an illness. Of the dozens of bacterial process's that might be going on in a person who is acutely ill from food poisoning and or tropical infection, etc, the idea that any single one is causing the condion is actually speculation. The rational view is that bacterial process's are the result not the cause of disease processes. The "terrain not the microbe" theory eliminates drug treatments, which can't address terrain, and is therefore not entertained.

Surrendering common sense to technology is superstition. The abuse of medical technology is the root of physical and mental Aids. Believing in virus's that don't exist, tests that are 100% false and diseases that are based on markers, markers which themselves are nothing but weak assumptions, has its root in blindly and uncritically accepting technology. Once technology is examined much of the assumptions fall apart.

Had you gotten this treated in Thailand no one would have been so incompetent. The whole picture is so bloody obvious.

In your case, with your symptoms, lack of of symptoms, and the vivid compelling personal short term history crying out that you had a tropical infection or food poisoning, etc, there should never even have been an Xray. Once the Xray was taken the idea that this is pneumonia is more than bizarre. Of the numerous inflammatory process that can explain lung shading and bacterial activity to dream up pneumonia in a person without respiratory symptoms is beyond comprehension. This can only happen when technology replaces reasoning.

The same medical technological auses that convinced you that you have an HIV virus gave you a pneumonia. Now your a very lucky winner - both your conditions come from the same place - nowhere - and providing you know how to think and ask questions you'll be able to take back your mind and health from a belief program that infected you.

Here are some articles concering the problems with Xray's and diagnoses. ( I am not good with a computer, so am unable to give a direct link - if anyone can give the direct links thanks - the titles of studies are given for locating themvia Google seach

[moderator note: embedded hyperlinks added, per request]

Clinical Pneumonia or Virtual Health ? (http://acountrydoctorwrites.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/clinical-pneumonia-or-virtual-health/)

Role of Chest X-Ray in Diagnosis Of Lower Respiratory Tract Infection In Children Less Than Five Years of Age in Community : (http://pjms.com.pk/issues/octdec05/article/article6.html) ( the conclusion reads "chest radiographs have little value in diagnosis of pneumonia" )

Chest X-ray ( mania ) in pediatric emergency departments (http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0021-75572004000200016&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en);

a few exerts from Chest X- ray mania -
- difficulties of radiological diagnosis
- dispensing with high tech diagnosis
- diagnosis of pneumonia remains a challange
- arguments for renouncing chest X rays
- limitations of Chest X ray for pneumonia diagnosis can't be denied

BuffaloBoy
October 13th, 2009, 07:28 AM
Ok Lightanddarkbalance. I've had to take to my bed again, having had to cancel my much looked forward to weekend plans, due to chills, high fevers, and exhaustion.

You're clearly very knowledgeable in such matters so what should I do to get back on my feet?

Brian Carter
October 13th, 2009, 03:18 PM
Buffalo

No one can tell you what to do on here. Although some insights might be helpful.

Where's you alternative medicine practitioner? Do you have one? Do you engage in natural and holistic lifestyle choices?

WATCH THIS VIDEO (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6707428874362219714&ei=h4vUSr60BqLwqAPP5Pj6CQ&q=gary+null+lecture&hl=en#)

lightanddarkbalance
October 13th, 2009, 05:53 PM
Ok Lightanddarkbalance. I've had to take to my bed again, having had to cancel my much looked forward to weekend plans, due to chills, high fevers, and exhaustion.

You're clearly very knowledgeable in such matters so what should I do to get back on my feet?

Of all the self healing responses fever is the greatest. Congradulations.

I'm regularly involved in many methods to improve my health. What I would give to get a hold of a good fever to burn the garbage. Any chance you could Fedex me some of it ?

The problem is the conflict between the educated socially domesticated self which is disconnected from nature, and the animal self whose wisdom can heal us. The health disaster from going against nature nature by suppressing symptoms - allopathic medicine is based on suppression of symptoms - belongs to the domesticated self. The animal body with its vastly greater intelligence wants to remind us that to survive and heal will must respect and work with nature and become a pagan.

How you get back on your feet, so you can dance again in the future, may depend on letting that brillant animal do whats natural for now, which is to be flat on its back where it belongs.

In the meantime the domesticated normal self will need some diversion so it will not ruin the healing by going to another domesticated self called an expert Doctor who will no doubt suppress ( unless a homeopath who know better ) the "ignorant animal self" and abort the self healing response. Safe diversions for the imbecile domesticated self are childrens books, comedy and sleep. Repeated watching of a brief lecture such as -Youtube: Speech of Prof George Vithoulkas at the 2nd CONy, 2008 - on the real meaning of symptoms and the terrible damage to health by symptom suppression would be very valuable -

Keep in touch and best wishes for your healing. Your in good hands with the dna intelligence of that million + year old animal.

Your domesticated self does have some useful functions even if health is not one of them. Perhaps your domesticated self and mine can get together in the future and market a product that will induce a fever in people. It would be sensational. But there would be one huge problem. A revolutionary healing product like fever in a pill would be destroyed by the disease mongering industries. We would need a large team of body guards just to stay alive. Do you think it would be a good idea ? Healing is so revolutionary and economically dangerous to the status quo isn't it !

BuffaloBoy
October 13th, 2009, 10:59 PM
Buffalo

No one can tell you what to do on here. Although some insights might be helpful.

Where's you alternative medicine practitioner? Do you have one? Do you engage in natural and holistic lifestyle choices?

WATCH THIS VIDEO (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6707428874362219714&ei=h4vUSr60BqLwqAPP5Pj6CQ&q=gary+null+lecture&hl=en#)

I'm not in a position to be able to afford an alternative practitioner.

BuffaloBoy
October 14th, 2009, 11:01 PM
It's curious that no one has come up with an idea about what you're meant to do if you don't have the resources to access an alternative healer. In this sense, the dissident model is highly impractical and perhaps a reason which has put so many off. If you're poor, the idea of being able to afford a complementary/alternative healer, is beyond your wildest dreams. If you manage to buy enough food to live on and pay your bills you consider yourself to be be doing very well indeed.

But it's almost as if the dissident subtext is 'Can't afford an alternative healer? Too bad. Mainstream medicine will kill you, so you might as well just stay sick.' Not exactly the most sympathetic message to be spreading, is it?

G Man
October 14th, 2009, 11:47 PM
I don't need an alternative healer, and I'm fine. I don't know why you keep assuming everyone who doesn't follow HIV orthodoxy will get sick. Why do you continually do that Buffaloboy? It's just not accurate.

lightanddarkbalance
October 15th, 2009, 12:03 AM
In most cases if its a choice between going without treatment or getting conventional medical treatment no treatment is nearly always far superior. The actual number of situations which justify conventional treatment is actually quite low. The outcome of most conventional treatment, beyond the short term improvement, which is usually do to the suppression of symptoms, is often a worsened overall health. By doing nothing, the natural intelligence of the million year old body will usual self heal or go in the direction of self healing.

It is not necessarily true that an altenative medical system is required. It is not easy to find a competent practioneer. While alternative medicine typically doesn't have a damaging effect like conventional medicine it is hard to find a really skilled practioneer and often the million year old dna of the body will self correct - if allowed to go through its self healing stages which are termed symptoms

When a person has an acute illness, allowing nature to take its course is about the best thing that can be done. Elimination crises like colds and flu's, that have been sold and marketed as seperate diseases, are actually profound expressions of self healing. By treating effects as if they are causes allopathic medicine, with its toxic suppressive chemicals, has created a health disaster.

Fever is perhaps the single greatest immune activation that their is. Many people are actually so suppressed and blocked that they no longer even have the ability to create a fever. Allowing the natural process to run its course without blocking it is almost always the best course of action. Often after an acute illlness that runs its course naturally, according to the DNA inner wisdom doctor, a persons health is raised to a better and higher level - sometimes the improvement can bring a whole new level of better health.



It's curious that no one has come up with an idea about what you're meant to do if you don't have the resources to access an alternative healer. In this sense, the dissident model is highly impractical and perhaps a reason which has put so many off. If you're poor, the idea of being able to afford a complementary/alternative healer, is beyond your wildest dreams. If you manage to buy enough food to live on and pay your bills you consider yourself to be be doing very well indeed.

But it's almost as if the dissident subtext is 'Can't afford an alternative healer? Too bad. Mainstream medicine will kill you, so you might as well just stay sick.' Not exactly the most sympathetic message to be spreading, is it?

G Man
October 15th, 2009, 02:00 AM
I started off this thread by saying I was looking for a wholistic doc. While that is true, I'm not searching for one because I'm sick or planning to get sick. I just don't like what I've seen from conventional medicine, and I want to learn more about wholistic living and I want to find someone who does not believe in the HIV/AIDS theory and will not treat me based on that diagnosis. It's good for me, HIV pos or not, sick or not.

moonchild493
October 16th, 2009, 03:14 AM
So my grandson recently had what could only have been the dreaded swine flu (or H1N1 if you prefer). He ran a fairly high fever on and off which was not interfered with unless it got to a point my daughter considered dangerous. The fever went away, but Jason was left with severe coughing, which he is prone to get during any respiratory illness. The cough was bad enough, even with the use of an inhaler (this reactive airway thing is supposed to be similar to asthma) that he was out of school days after the fever was gone. He was prescribed some prednisolone (yeah, I know - evil steroids) presumably for inflammation. It didn't really help. My daughter begged for something that could control the cough enough to give him some relief and break the cycle. We finally resorted to very small doses of a cough medicine that is no longer even available by prescription (it has hydrocodone in it) and that really did the trick.

All this to say that the poor kid would possibly have pneumonia by now if we hadn't intervened and got him some relief. I don't think he would have gotten better on his own. I know I didn't. We can't always count on our bodies to fix themselves. I wish we could.

BB, I understand your frustration with the emphasis on alternative medicine. Frankly, it's done a lot less for me than I'd hoped. Aren't you in England? Don't you have doctors who are maybe a little less orthodox than some others? We can find them here. I enjoy having a doctor who bends over backwards to use natural methods but who can and will write a prescription when needed. If I'd insisted on natural methods the last time I was really sick, I'd probably be dead by now. Use your intellect and intuition and do your own research. Sambucus (elderberry extract) has trials to back up its effectiveness against flu. Vitamin D and maybe A can do a lot to support your immune system. Hopefully these are affordable for you. Do what you can with what you have. Take up some yoga or at least meditation and don't dwell on illness if you can avoid it. I hope you feel better soon.

Linda

lightanddarkbalance
October 16th, 2009, 06:13 PM
Giving inhalers !

Giving steroids !

Giving a narcotic syrup and considering it a success !

Having a history of repeated respiratory illness like this is because of, or despite the actions of the adults, who choose such extreme suppressive treatments ??

This report is not a testimony of the benefits of giving relief during an illness as it appears it was meant to be . This report is an excellent example as to why illnesses reoccur, again and again, with worsening symptoms, and then evolve in worse diseases, and become more and more difficult to treat later in life with rational medical systems like alternative medicine.

When I previously asked Linda, who had always been a willing communicator, what was her personal history with RX drugs she did not respond. Never before had she not been responsive on this chat room. Now in reading what choices are being made for a family member the the silence makes sense.

NO DRUGS - NO AIDS - NO EXCEPTIONS !!



So my grandson recently had what could only have been the dreaded swine flu (or H1N1 if you prefer). He ran a fairly high fever on and off which was not interfered with unless it got to a point my daughter considered dangerous. The fever went away, but Jason was left with severe coughing, which he is prone to get during any respiratory illness. The cough was bad enough, even with the use of an inhaler (this reactive airway thing is supposed to be similar to asthma) that he was out of school days after the fever was gone. He was prescribed some prednisolone (yeah, I know - evil steroids) presumably for inflammation. It didn't really help. My daughter begged for something that could control the cough enough to give him some relief and break the cycle. We finally resorted to very small doses of a cough medicine that is no longer even available by prescription (it has hydrocodone in it) and that really did the trick.

All this to say that the poor kid would possibly have pneumonia by now if we hadn't intervened and got him some relief. I don't think he would have gotten better on his own. I know I didn't. We can't always count on our bodies to fix themselves. I wish we could.

BB, I understand your frustration with the emphasis on alternative medicine. Frankly, it's done a lot less for me than I'd hoped. Aren't you in England? Don't you have doctors who are maybe a little less orthodox than some others? We can find them here. I enjoy having a doctor who bends over backwards to use natural methods but who can and will write a prescription when needed. If I'd insisted on natural methods the last time I was really sick, I'd probably be dead by now. Use your intellect and intuition and do your own research. Sambucus (elderberry extract) has trials to back up its effectiveness against flu. Vitamin D and maybe A can do a lot to support your immune system. Hopefully these are affordable for you. Do what you can with what you have. Take up some yoga or at least meditation and don't dwell on illness if you can avoid it. I hope you feel better soon.

Linda

IMMichaelG
October 16th, 2009, 08:25 PM
Linda,

As the somewhat "deep thinker" that you now know me to be, when I read your words above, due to my own current perceptions and awareness of what beliefs or unconscious levels of awareness or unawareness that seems to underlie other peoples words or statements, some of what you had written above, and what beliefs seem to underlie your words, kind of jumps right off the page at me.

What do you think about the following:

You said about your daughter: "My daughter begged for something that could control the cough enough to give him some relief and break the cycle."

This statement seems to evidence that your daughter may have been projecting her own stress filled fears upon your grandson. I myself think children are very susceptible to the projections upon them and somewhat subconcious messages or signals that are given to them by their caretakers, and it seems to me that at least your daughter was perhaps unknowingly projecting her own worst fears of repercussions of swine flu at her son.

You yourself said: "All this to say that the poor kid would possibly have pneumonia by now if we hadn't intervened and got him some relief."

That statement seems to me to be another negative belief, but by you, not your daughter. Though, like you, your daughter was also raised around this belief system, and now it seems that the beliefs are even being passed even to your own grandson.

You also said: "I don't think he would have gotten better on his own. I know I didn't.

Other than evidencing what seems to be your own beliefs of impending sickness without some kind of medicinal interventions, I actually think that you are also likely absolutely right, though not for the reasons you might think.

I think that if the caretakers are projecting more sickness upon the child, then only by those caretakers projecting something positive such as a positive projection that some kind of medications will bring relief to him will the child then be given the positive message and signal along with the medications to get well again.

For an adult who was raised in such a belief system by their own parents, when they are ill and in negative beliefs and negative levels of consciousness such as fear of greater sickness or death, and when their own belief system is only positive about their own regaining health if or when interventions are given to them by an authority figure such as a doctor, then I think that person will also likely require those external sources or devices such as believed in medications, as well as a message and signal from parental authority figure (now in the form of a doctor) in order to be well again or in order for them to be able to give their own self permission to heal.

This seems to me to be getting programmed into us and we in turn grow up with these programs and then program the next generations with such because that is the belief system that we ourselves are programmed with.

I think that to withhold such believed in treatments or signals or messages from what that individual considers to be the parental authority figure to be would be to assure them of creating whatever belief in illness that they have, that is being projected upon them by others, or that is deeply believed and held as true by their own self.

And to me, this certainly includes children who are very susceptible to the projections and programming and messages and signals that are put upon them by their caregivers, usually their parents. That, plus we are all programmed to go see a doctor and go get a pill or two, along with the doctors assurance and permission to get well, before we can even allow our own selfs to get well.

You said: "We can't always count on our bodies to fix themselves. I wish we could".

This evidences what seems to be another belief that you might have, being evidence that your own inner belief is that your body often can't heal of its own natural ability, at least not without getting a doctors permission and some type of remedy from him.

My own belief is that it is our beliefs that create our realities. If so, then to believe our bodies often times can't heal, as your statement above claims, will likely result in manifesting that very belief into reality.

Then you said "I wish we could".

To me, it seems that your "wish" that your body could "fix itself" seems to evidence that you have perhaps no belief at all in your own innate ability to heal and/or are presently holding such ability to naturally heal away even from your own self. I think that wishing for something is far removed from embracing it and also far removed from allowing ones self to have it, and is certainly far removed from believing ones self to already possess such as what they are "wishing" for.

Consider this:

Sit down in a chair and "wish" as hard as you can that you could have something that is simply sitting across the room from you. As long as you are sitting there merely "wishing" for what is across the room, what you are "wishing" for remains on the other side of the room.

Only by intending, or which requires believing that you will possess the object of focus, thereby allows your own self to get up off your butt and simply go possess what is across the room. Only by believing you will most assuredly have it will get you to simply stand up, walk over, and possess what you were formerly only merely "wishing" for, yet were actually simply withholding away from your own self, or holding your own self away from it.

Continued in next post.....

IMMichaelG
October 16th, 2009, 08:26 PM
You said: "If I'd insisted on natural methods the last time I was really sick, I'd probably be dead by now."

The statement seems to be another negative (as in not life enhancing but life detracting) and seems to be a deep seated belief, and the implication of the statement is that it is only positive that you would likely be dead without the methods (doctors, meds, permission by the authorities, etc) that you did choose (or were you programmed to choose such?), and seems to be a major reinforcement of such beliefs that you are ultimately retelling to your own self.

It seems to me to be a negative projection of impending death unless you use unnatural or MD doctor approved methods. I would think that if you are actually intending on freeing yourself of such medications in the future, as you have at least professed to desire, then you might consider telling yourself something else instead, such as "I give my own self permission to heal" or "my body possesses the wisdom of millions of years of evolution, and knows how to heal, when I keep my own negative beliefs and fears out of the way".

It also kind of jumped out at me that you seem to still have a deep and subconcious focus on illness itself, because you recommended to BB: "don't dwell on illness if you can avoid it."

Your suggestion to him, though I do understand what you meant, and understand that you meant well by it, seems to me to be framed as a statement that is primarily focused on the negative, as the focus of the statement was on illness.

Is that where the focus should be if one intends to be well? I myself believe that it is by focusing on the negative that we then increase our likelihood of continuing to have more of what we focus on, in this case illness.

I do recognize that you simply told him "DON'T" focus on such, though you did add a positive DO statement to him "if you can avoid it".

But we human beings are "doers" and are made to "DO". We are not made by nature to "don't" anything.

Since human beings cannot by nature "don't" anything, and that we can only "do this" or "do that" something else instead of some other thing we might want to avoid, the human consciousness usually responds to "don't" statements often by DOING more of exactly what someone else is telling them "don't do". I have noticed that by telling others to "don't do this or don't do that", that the person being told inadvertently ends up focusing more on it and then doing more of it. Strange, but it seems to be the way our minds function (or malfunction).

I myself, in becoming aware of this, tend to encourage people instead to focus on what they would like to see more of, instead of focusing at all on what they want to avoid. I now think a positively stated sentence would be to suggest someone might want to: "Do focus on health, or DO focus on healing, or DO focus on well being, instead of "don't focus on sickness, illness, or death". It seems to me to be most important to simply change the focus from the negative to the desired positive with better results when giving others encouragement.

I think we humans move forward by focusing on what we want in the future, not by keeping our eyes behind us or on what we might wish we had avoided in the past.

By focusing on what we would "LIKE" to have or to be or to posess, and by intending to have it, instead of what we presently have, the focus is then upon what one should "DO" instead of remaining focused on the negative or on the past. Life seems to bring us what we focus on having. You focus on getting a new job or new car or having or becoming some other thing, and you begin to make the movement toward attaining and realizing what you are focusing on. First, the focus, then you get that new job or car or become and realize whatever it is that you had previously been focusing on.

Therefore, your words, to me at least, seem to be evidencing you to yet be holding very negative beliefs and perhaps negative focus toward your own, as well as others, health and well being, when perhaps there are other options you could choose if you gained awareness of those options.

I myself would encourage you to do as you teach, and focus on possessing the positive you desire, instead of focusing on what you, or your loved ones might wish to avoid.

Hate to dump too much on you all at once, and I am fully aware that becoming more aware of our inner program is usually a process of taking 3 steps forward then falling 2 steps back before moving 3 more forward, but if you would like to gain more awareness on creating or manifesting or would like to increase a new habit of focusing on what you would like to have in life instead of what you would rather avoid, I would also suggest you might want to immerse yourself in yet another book to gain more awareness of positive or negative focus, and the process of doing so, as well as the results of such, called: "Excuse Me, Your Life Is Waiting" by Lynn Grabhorn.

She also deals with health issues as regards such a process, as well as external physical things such as all of the good things in life, like more money, better job, and anything else you might like to have manifest in your life.

Most human beings with whom we share this planet, seem to have a long way to go to gain any sincere awareness of what all programming and what all negativity is presently rattling around deeply in their own heads, as well as the impact it has on us all, and that we might one day wish to take a look at or learn from, or maybe even choose to discard such as useless and possibly even harmful beliefs that were taught by our own family, friends, teachers, and society to believe in. Or not. Other choices appear to us once again.

Sincerely Yours,

Michael

G Man
October 16th, 2009, 08:34 PM
Great posts Michael, very insightful. Your thoughts are especially useful to me, since I tend to be a negative thinker at times. (Trying to reverse that process!)

IMMichaelG
October 16th, 2009, 09:10 PM
I also tend to think that a lot of people have a deep seated fear of death. From what I have seen, those who hold such deep seated fear of death often unwittingly focus on that fear, and while it is an object of their focus, they seem to quite often manifest flirting with death in the form of becoming deathly sick, car accidents, etc.

Again, it seems to me to be that the unnecessary focus on death itself tends to manifest in oftentimes presenting the opportunities to come near to it or to confront it or realize whatever it is that one is holding in their mind.

I think the most beneficial course is to simply accept the facts as they are. We all die one day, and none will avoid it. Meanwhile, lets focus on life and living as physical death is inevitable, and death for each and every one of us will one day have its day, with or without our being prematurely and needlessly fearing it or overly focused on it or focused on trying to avoid it. Ultimately, like it or not, physical death of our bodies is ultimately unavoidable.

Here is an interesting concept for all of your perusals:

I am aware that there are probably many people who believe their lives to be so miserable that they themselves would like to exit the planet sooner than later. They often seem to go through life with endless death fears, death focusing, and flirtations with what become obvious as self manifested death experiences.

But as for the rest of us? Those of us who prefer to stick around? Perhaps we would best benefit by living it up as best we all can, to the best of our abilities, to laugh hard and laugh often at all of the absurdities of life, and to simply enjoy all of our lives and all that life has to offer us until our own inevitable deaths happen. And we'll probably have lots of time to think about death after it has happened, like maybe eternity, and if not, who cares at that point anyway.

After all, like it or not, fear it or not, we all eventually go sliding right into home plate all too soon to suit most of us! But what would we really like to do until then? Travel and explore this world, live, laugh, love, make ourselves useful, build something, do something, go somewhere? There is a planet full of possibilities here for all who want to step out of their own life draining negativities.

As for myself, one way or another I myself intend to live it up and enjoy it, and make the best of this trip through life while it lasts. I will worry about death and dying when I get there. What do all of you say? You are more than welcome to join in and give your own selves a great life as soon as you give your own self permission.

Michael

lightanddarkbalance
October 16th, 2009, 09:18 PM
Michael,

Are you implying that mind over matter and positive verus negative thinking and beliefs trumps the hard facts of taking physical poisons and doing damaging actions ?

Unless I am misunderstanding you, I don't see the relevance of your points.
As an example - if the attitude was opposite, and a negative belief was replaced by a positive one ( meaningless since beliefs are relative and contingent and not objective realities ) but the harmful physical actions were the same, the outcome would be the same or nearly the same. To argue that an attitude and belief is the dominant factor, when physical forces are attitudinally and belief neutral is ... is ... is... quite a strange and unreal belief to my way of understanding experience.

BuffaloBoy
October 16th, 2009, 09:21 PM
So my grandson recently had what could only have been the dreaded swine flu (or H1N1 if you prefer). He ran a fairly high fever on and off which was not interfered with unless it got to a point my daughter considered dangerous. The fever went away, but Jason was left with severe coughing, which he is prone to get during any respiratory illness. The cough was bad enough, even with the use of an inhaler (this reactive airway thing is supposed to be similar to asthma) that he was out of school days after the fever was gone. He was prescribed some prednisolone (yeah, I know - evil steroids) presumably for inflammation. It didn't really help. My daughter begged for something that could control the cough enough to give him some relief and break the cycle. We finally resorted to very small doses of a cough medicine that is no longer even available by prescription (it has hydrocodone in it) and that really did the trick.

All this to say that the poor kid would possibly have pneumonia by now if we hadn't intervened and got him some relief. I don't think he would have gotten better on his own. I know I didn't. We can't always count on our bodies to fix themselves. I wish we could.

BB, I understand your frustration with the emphasis on alternative medicine. Frankly, it's done a lot less for me than I'd hoped. Aren't you in England? Don't you have doctors who are maybe a little less orthodox than some others? We can find them here. I enjoy having a doctor who bends over backwards to use natural methods but who can and will write a prescription when needed. If I'd insisted on natural methods the last time I was really sick, I'd probably be dead by now. Use your intellect and intuition and do your own research. Sambucus (elderberry extract) has trials to back up its effectiveness against flu. Vitamin D and maybe A can do a lot to support your immune system. Hopefully these are affordable for you. Do what you can with what you have. Take up some yoga or at least meditation and don't dwell on illness if you can avoid it. I hope you feel better soon.

Linda

Doctors (general practitioners) here seem to be surprisingly conservative. I think a few are open to 'alternative' ideas, like using tea tree oil to clear up skin infections rather than hand out antiobiotics.

However, on the whole, I think the issue is risk. Following the lead of the US, people here are far more litigious than they ever used to be so doctors don't want to be seen to recommending treatments, supplements etc that have not beeen 'scientifically' proven, as they do not want to expose the Primary Care Trust, for whom they work, to lawsuits. Generally, this means doctors in the UK tow the line, and you have to go to (expensive) private practioners in order to get a different view.

And it should go without saying that doctors working exclusively in HIV clinics are a lost cause when it comes to alternative therapies. Most would probably warn you off many supplements if you were on treatment, due to their fear of 'drug interactions'.

IMMichaelG
October 16th, 2009, 10:23 PM
Michael,

Are you implying that mind over matter and positive verus negative thinking and beliefs trumps the hard facts of taking physical poisons and doing damaging actions ?

Unless I am misunderstanding you, I don't see the relevance of your points.
As an example - if the attitude was opposite, and a negative belief was replaced by a positive one ( meaningless since beliefs are relative and contingent and not objective realities ) but the harmful physical actions were the same, the outcome would be the same or nearly the same. To argue that an attitude and belief is the dominant factor, when physical forces are attitudinally and belief neutral is ... is ... is... quite a strange and unreal belief to my way of understanding experience.

Hi L&D,

Could you clarify what you are saying here, as I believe you are perhaps misinterpreting.

I would suggest you might want to explore consciousness further by getting a copy of "Power Versus Force", as it explains levels of consciousness, and delineates which are levels where one is attempting to use mere force, and which levels one is in a place of empowerment. Power trumps force. For every force there is an equal and opposite force lined up against it. Understanding which is which is crucial to understanding what can be influenced or changed and what cannot.

This is not a matter of mind over matter, but of mind influencing choices that matter.

Beliefs and levels of conscious awareness determine what choices one can even perceive or believe in as being available.

Beliefs can be perceived completely differently from one level of consciousness to the next.

Let me give you a brief example. The world and its available choices look very different from the level of apathy, or of fear, or of love. If one is on the level of apathy, and some bum walks near them late at night, the perception is that the bum is evidence that everything is helpless and hopeless. If one is on the level of fear, they may want to go call the police because in their perception, the guy is going to mug them. If they are on the level of love, they may want to invite the bum in for something to eat and to share life stories. Love is empowering, while fear and apathy are very disempowering. They "feel" very different as you yourself surely understand. The available choices one can see will change from level to level, and there are many other levels to human consciousness that I have not even pointed out to you. Some of those levels will weaken you, and some will strengthen you. You know the difference yourself by how you feel, either empowered or disempowered, weakened or strengthened by the very thoughts you think. And yes, of course such even affects our physical well being or ability to tolerate toxins, as well as our ability to heal from illness which by the way, is manifestly lower, with much greater numbers of ill people on disempowered lower levels of consciousness with all of their associated beliefs and available choices, many of which you point out are indeed toxic or harmful.


When one's prior beliefs and actions resulting from those beliefs led to and resulted in the "hard facts" that you describe, then ultimately were not the original beliefs the actual ultimate source of what later transpired, ie; physical poisons/damaging actions? Of course they were. What later transpired resulted from the earlier beliefs.

I myself do believe that each and every one of us is the source and cause of our own experiences of life. Though much of what we will manifest or choose or do is programmed into us, we also all have our own level of innate conscious awareness, and we can increase that awareness and thereby gain more access to the empowered states of such instead of the disempowered levels of force.

Most of our lives and actions and choices that we see as available are therefore on 'autopilot', so it is only by gaining awareness of those levels and of the programs of underlying beliefs, or by gaining an understanding of other levels of awareness that result in completely different choices becoming obvious, that we can reprogram the already programmed trajectory of first of all ourselves and thereby influence all of our society or global community.

And the program in any of us is much greater than just the individual. We have our individual programming, our societal programming, and our global programming, as well as innate levels of conscious awareness.

The entire issue of hiv/aids should make such programming self evident to you as it too has individual, societal, and global components and this includes the toxic poisons of which you speak, as well as harmful actions. It is only by becoming aware of such as this program that mankind can possibly even hope to step out of it and take a new trajectory.

There are also many other programs and programming within us all, including social, medical, scientific, religious, industrial, and political programmed beliefs. These too make up the entire picture and show us all to be in "a matrix" of programmed beliefs, with very very few that have successfully stepped out of most of the matrix itself. Then, we also have the strange tendency to also behave like crabs in a pot of water that is slowly heating up to boiling. If one crab attempts to crawl out, the crabs below try to get their own selves out by pulling the escaping crabs back down into the pot. Escaping the matrix of programmed beliefs with their resultant manifestations is far easier said than done.

So, if I am understanding what you were asking, L&D, we are individually, societally and globally creating and manifesting all of the realities that we are dealing with in the physical realm of human experience. And it starts with our beliefs and our levels of conscious awareness which are the greatest determinants of what we will create in our own lives as well as in our world. And we all, each and every one of us, affects and impacts the whole organism of life itself as we know it. So if we don't like what we currently have, then we simply need to move up out of the false beliefs and to more empowered states of conscious living.

M

G Man
October 16th, 2009, 11:52 PM
Lightanddarkbalance,

I agree with almost everything you post. But wouldn't you agree that positive thoughts and attitude can only be a good thing and can only serve to improve health? And wouldn't you also agree that what you think about tends to happen, if for no other reason than it has a subconscious effect and tends to move you in the direction of the thing that is being given attention in your thoughts? I can tell you from personal experience it's true. It may not be scientific, but it's just one of those things you have to experience to believe.

lightanddarkbalance
October 17th, 2009, 12:03 AM
Michael I think I get what your saying which is why it is troubling to me.

To make sure where communicated let me give a few examples of why I find the consciousness/self responsibility explaination of things a troubling form of narcissism and denial of social and natural forces.

Someone has to collect the garbage in life and clean the office at night. Can it be said that then that the people who are doing these jobs are doing so because of their belief systems ? Are they running on consciousness programs that limit they full potential or are they being run over by exploitive economic and social forces which require class systems to maintain injustice, - the type of injustices and hard structural realities that new age consciousness philoshophy wishes to deny in the quest for narcissitic self indulence.

A mother is mislead and trusts authorities and repeatedly gives her children and herself antibiotics when they are sick. She does so out of love and ignorance. According to higher consciousness she is at fault for having a low level of understanding and being loving and trusting. Are the physical diseases that follow then result or her prior beliefs. Corporate control of information, economic exploitation, social and cultural programing are not primary factors in people lives in this model - it is they themselves and their belief systems which are the source of their problems. They are responsible to be human and should work on their awareness. This type of new age bad dreaming is exactly what a Me first, socially insensitive and politically uninvolved self is all about. It seperates a person from the web of interdependance and reduces them into a me only consumer.

The degree of unconciousness which is sold as the conciousness movement has very little to do with real development of consciousness which is based on the combination of awareness and compassion. Without compassion awareness becomes an engineering game designed to get what the ego wants and to not deal with the dark side of ourselves and society. Last week in Sedonna 2 people died in a sweat lodge which they paid $10,00 to use as part of a program which, while claiming to be designed to free a person from their limited self scripts, actually was nothing more than ego centered development of getting want one wants masquedading as awareness. Being in denial about the lack of awareness to existing limitations like heat exhaustion and believing that focusing on goals and mental self talk to reengineer oneself, according to some concept, designed by the original deluded ego that is the actual problem in the first place, is what killed these 2people.

It is worth noting that a big part of the message of this narcissism training in Sedonna was that success and freedom had very strong correlations with having a lot of money. The training would give something called freedom, which whatever that means, the promise of being able to get what want in the money realm was clear. Too bad since the two have little if anything to do with each other. The fool who said that it is easier for a camel to pass though the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven would never have attended such an event - perhaps his belief system was too limited !

Hopefully I am being clear about why I have issues which equate consciousness improvement an real self responsibility to the good/bad manipulations of ego and what belief systems have to do with being stuck in the desert without water. Blaming the victim and making things simply a matter of awareness and self responsibility seems to be not very aware or responisible.

IMMichaelG
October 17th, 2009, 12:15 AM
I would suggest that the placebo effect alone tends to suggest that there is much more going on than meets the eye.

I do not know if any mind/body mechanism is or will ever be found by science, as the realm of what is going on in our minds and if/how it affects the physical realm is capable of being determined via any known scientific methods or equipment, but I doubt it.

Science is presently not capable of determining most of what we humans personally experience emotionally. It cannot determine what we think, how much we fear, how apathetic or hopeful we feel, if or how intensely we hate or love, if we are forgiving or resentful, if or how angry we are.

Obviously, science is limited, and is further limited also by our own rational minds.

According to the wikipaedia: "The Heisenberg theory has shown that science is severely limited in understanding anything:
In quantum mechanics, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle states that certain pairs of physical properties, like position and momentum, cannot both be known to arbitrary precision. That is, the more precisely one property is known, the less precisely the other can be known. This is not a statement about the limitations of a researcher's ability to measure particular quantities of a system, it is a statement about the nature of the system itself as described by the equations of quantum mechanics. According to the uncertainty principle, it is, for instance, impossible to measure simultaneously both position and velocity of a microscopic particle with any degree of accuracy or certainty."

And then we have the "observer effect":

Again, according to the wikipaedia: "The "observer effect" shows that science is yet further limited:
In physics, the term observer effect refers to changes that the act of observation will make on the phenomenon being observed. This is often the result of instruments that, by necessity, alter the state of what they measure in some manner. This effect can be observed in many domains of physics."

I myself would argue that the observers themselves, along with their beliefs and intentions, may very well be creating or projecting the discrepancies onto reality by themselves, and it may have nothing to do with their instruments, or their beliefs and intentions may be affecting their instruments as well.

So, what are we left with? Science will never have any greater ultimate understanding of physical realms other than "We don't know, more study is needed".

Do thoughts or beliefs actually physically have an effect on reality? Is such a thing as mind over matter actually at any time a truth, or is the reality of it all even deeper than mere mind and mentations alone?

We are left on our own here, with much going on that defies meager attempts to find explanations, but obviously there are things that we do not yet, or may never comprehend that are indeed going on.

M

IMMichaelG
October 17th, 2009, 01:11 AM
L&D,

Are you sure that your own reactions and perceptions in your own response might not also be seen to be lacking in compassion or at least understanding? Are you sure you yourself are not presently seeking to blame? If so, your statements above may have more to do with your own perceptions and beliefs and conscious awareness, than with anything that I have shared.

You said: "A mother is mislead and trusts authorities".

It might be easy to perceive that you are "blaming" the authorities for misleading her, while still ignoring her own personal responsibilty for her own choices.

You mentioned those who charged for a sweat lodge to "raise consciousness". I can understand your frustration with those whose who would supposedly "sell" awareness, but either way, are you not blaming those who ran the sweat lodge? Lots and lots of people go to sweat lodges and don't end up dead. People go to sauna's all the time. The people who you say died also volunteered to go to that. They also volunteered to stay put when surely their own body was telling them to get the hell out before they pass out. Ultimately nature itself held the two that died accountable for their choices to go along with all of that.

I do however, understand your point or frustrations that any such selling of supposed increased awareness coming about by it is a falsehood. Awareness is free for those who seek it and those who intend on having more of it. It costs nothing. Those who would charge for it are to me no different than those who sell health through what would be toxic or deadly pills. They are both selling the beliefs, though chances are good that those doing so actually are suffering from their own false beliefs that their methods would do such as they claim.

As for your mention of those who pick up garbage, well, I myself have had jobs where I cleaned plenty of toilets and picked up lots of trash. I do not feel any lesser or any greater than any others due to my own choice to accept taking on such jobs. Nor did anyone force me to take those jobs. They were available, I needed the money, and simply did not look at any other options at the time, though surely there were other jobs available to me. You seem to be implying that jobs such as picking up the trash are demeaning or lesser jobs than other cleaner jobs. I do not share such a view. Someone needs to do it. I myself am grateful to those who would do such. If trash pick-up ended, we would be infested with vermin and stench. I do not consider it above or below me or anyone else to choose to have such a job. Oh, and by the way, those garbage men are unionized and actually do make really good money by accepting the job these days. And in my own mind, they deserve it, if for no other reason to make up for the stigma that many would put upon them for having such a job.

I have been so hungry that I have eaten out of dumpsters and have been so thirsty that I drank out of puddles, and I have lived for several years in garages and doorways and vehicles, though today I have a successful business. Does that make me any lesser than others? I don't think so, for me, I am grateful for those experiences for I learned much from them.

I myself think the dishwasher is just as important to a restaurant as the chef. The chef can make as wonderful a meal as you have ever eaten, but if there is filth on your dishes or glasses from an earlier patron, even the best of meals can be rather unappetizing.

As for what you are perceiving as "blaming the victim", that type of attitude certainly doesn't exist on higher levels of awareness, as all just is what it is, all are doing the best they can with what they have to work with at any given time, and that includes their current belief system and/or conscious awareness.

Nature itself certainly holds us all accountable for our choices in life, including all that is natural. If a wild animal steps off a cliff, that animal itself pays the price for its choice. Ultimately we all pay for our own choices and our ignorance of other options that we might have chosen instead. Blame the animal? Of course not. It did what it thought was the best at the time. I myself have compassion for it, not blame. The same for those who are suffering the consequences of false beliefs or of suffering from lower levels of consciousness. I myself have suffered them terribly in my own life. I have nothing but compassion for those others who might also suffer such. Where do you think my own understanding of much of this comes from? It is from my own often intensely painful experiences, and what I learned from it all I certainly enjoy sharing with others.

If you or anyone else would perceive blame in this, that likely has to do with your own self and your own perception or your own level of awareness or your own beliefs. Nature does not blame any animal for getting eaten, or for falling off a cliff, or for any other obvious errors or mistakes in judgement or thinking or beliefs. Only humans blame. Only humans with our human minds and egos even have such a concept such as blame for anything or anyone. In my own view, all are inherently innocent, and none can change their past or anything they believed or did in the past, and all have done the best they could with what they had at any given time. And there certainly is no-one and nothing to blame, for none can help how they see anything about their perception of reality at any given moment.

But I do believe we can, if we intend and desire and choose to, we can change our perceptions and our beliefs, and our own futures.

There is a saying that goes "When you change the way you look at something, what you look at changes". So that is a major statement about what any of us might believe from one moment to the next, and how it can change, and how the perception most definitely changes when we do change our beliefs about something.

M

moonchild493
October 17th, 2009, 01:33 AM
Wow, what a can of worms I seem to have opened! I don't deny that I probably have a lot more negative thinking than I should. That's one of the main things I'm trying to work on. But I swear that when I started getting all these weird symptoms about 2 1/2 years ago now, I did everything in my power to use natural means to fix them. As things got worse, I consulted some more conventional docs in an attempt to avoid succumbing once again to ARVs. This was a very long and agonizing process and I probably got a bit desperate by the end. I also was becoming a burden on those around me, and that was very troubling.

Michael, I will go back and reread every word that you have written. I have great respect for you and your intellect and insight. Right now I'm doing the best I can with what I have. I listened to all the interviews in the recent Tapping World Summit, and they said similar things about concentrating on the positive, but some also said first you need to clear the negative. They all have had great success themselves and treating others with this method. So I'm going to try it next week and see how it works for me.

l&d, I don't recall your asking me about my medical and/or drug history. For quite a few years I have tried to handle things as naturally as possible, but I have had little success. My history is pretty typical, and they gave me all the usual suspects when I was diagnosed. You get to a certain point where you need to do something because things keep going downhill.

With regard to my grandson, he is mostly being treated by conventional means. This is not my decision, but it is not mine to make. Have you ever been around a child who coughs and coughs and can't breathe, especially all through the night? It is very frightening. I can't say whether things used on him now will adversely affect him in the future, or whether the same will happen to me. I firmly stand behind taking actions that seem to be necessary at the time. If anyone has suggestions for natural means that might work, I'm open to them and will pass them on to my daughter. I give her what advice I can, but I can't make her take it. If she sees something will work, she is very logical and will try it. I beg those of you who have not been seriously ill to consider the effect it has on people. Sick people do indeed get scared, and often with very good reason. I don't believe I am afraid to die, but I am afraid to merely exist, especially in delining health. Right now, my health is improving, and I'm working on keeping it that way.

I will read the books, Michael, and act on the info if it makes sense to me. I'm doing the best I can with what I have to work with. I admit to often being weak in this department, but I am getting some counseling to help with this.

BB, I'm sorry for the state of medicine in the UK. I don;t know how to help you. You must research what you can and see if you can find some relief. Don't forget the spiritual and emotional side to all this. There is an interesting site that goes into much of this, and also books by the same doctor that explain it all further. Check out www.askwaltstollmd. You can post questions to him and the many other knowledgeable people there. Perhaps they can offer some answers.

Peace,

Linda

IMMichaelG
October 17th, 2009, 02:02 AM
Hi Linda, you said: "Wow, what a can of worms I seem to have opened!"

Can of worms, hell! You opened us up to some rather interesting discusssions, don't you think?

I myself love to discuss beliefs, and the impact of our choices and beliefs, and to share some of my own, as well as my perceptions of others beliefs as honestly as I can. Though at times perhaps you may not, I hope you appreciate my and others honesty with what we do perceive and share. If not, you are always welcome to let us know your own honest opinion of what we think or have shared, even if you think something or other is full of nonsense.

And by the way, I, as well as most of those here are well aware that you are doing your best, as are we and all who are members. Right or wrong, all anyone here including myself can ever offer to you or to anyone else is our own opinions, beliefs, or perceptions, or perhaps other possibilities that you might deem worthy of your own consideration.

The choices you or anyone else here makes are always your own and are always up to you, no matter what anyone else here may think or believe or whether others agree with your own current beliefs or perceptions or choices or not.

M

IMMichaelG
October 17th, 2009, 04:14 AM
By the way, L&D,

You said: "the type of injustices and hard structural realities that new age consciousness philoshophy wishes to deny in the quest for narcissitic self indulence".

It seems that in this statement of yours, that you are perhaps painting 100% of a very loosely, if at all tied together group with what a far lesser percentage of individuals in a far lesser percentage of that group is doing. Is that really a fair assessment to put upon the totality of a greatly varied number of people and their varied beliefs?

Some, sure, but certainly not all of "new age consciousness philosophy", (much of which by the way is many thousands of years in establishing, and is rather well time tested), can be honestly painted with such a brush.

What a few are guilty of, does not mean all are guilty of. A few blacks may have raped white women. That does not mean all blacks are rapists. Many Christians are pro death penalty or are very judgemental, that does not mean that the original teacher meant his teachings to be used for such or that all Christians or all christian based groups are doing such. As a matter of fact, many great teachings, and not just of jesus end up getting distorted and corrupted and abused by those who later followed those teachings, or then tried to package and sell their distorted version of such to the unaware.

Many gays go to the bathhouses, are strung out on drugs, or are suffering from sex addiction. That does not mean all gays are. Some members of any group do something absurd, including aids dissident groups, but that doesn't mean the entire group is so deluded. You get the point. Same goes for those who would embrace raising their consciousness, which surely includes the likes of such as Mother Theresa and others. Just because one is discussing raising consciousness does not mean they are seeking to profit from it or are leading others to Narcissistic destructions. Just because some might do so, also does not necessarily make them bad or all evil either. Perhaps they simply have more lessons to learn about the material side of life. If such is the case, so be it. Others don't have to join in or follow them in doing such, but all humans are free to choose any such thing for themselves or choose something else.

Furthermore, just because some in any group might do something awful does not mean the entire baby should be thrown out with the dirty bathwater.

And, yes, surely there are also many spiritual leaders who had at one point very high levels of consciousness, and later fell far away from such a "state of grace". The warning in this is rather evident. One obviously needs to be very careful whose teachings they would follow, or if, they would follow anyone's teachings at all.

But much, and usually the core beliefs of most of what is called "new age consciousness etc ect" was actually founded and is often found in similarly worded ancient texts of many religions, such as Hindu, buddhism, egyptian belief, native American Indian belief, Christianity, Jewish texts, and much much more. Many of the teachings of some of these ancient texts often have similarly described beliefs to much of the core beliefs of what is called "new age" when held side to side. And so much of this is certainly far from anything new, even though some people might try to package and sell them as "new and improved" or presented in a new way of saying the same things that were first said thousands of years ago. And certainly, the selling of such for personal gain by some is also nothing new, and has also gone on for many thousands of years as well.

Not everything comes with warning labels, so, as with anything in life, certainly people should be careful as to who or what they would choose to believe or do or follow. The price for not being careful can indeed be very high, such as loss or wasting of one's money or even the early loss of their life.

But certainly not everyone into what you are calling "new age consciousness" is a Jim Jones leading his followers to death by drinking spiked Kool-Aid, or is taking their followers for a suicide trip to meet the mother ship coming with the next comet. And as with all in life, it kind of goes without saying that one needs to watch for themselves where they are going, or they may end up paying the price for not doing so. Though I'll grant you that using such common sense does seem to often be uncommon for a percentage of people on this planet.

lightanddarkbalance
October 17th, 2009, 04:19 AM
Quotes from Oscar Wilde, which addresses the myths and traps of personal choice, self responsibility, and the illusion of actually having a Self -

"most people are other people, there thoughts are other peoples opinions, there lives are mimicary, there passions are quotations "

"When the gods wish to punish us they answer our prayers"

IMMichaelG
October 17th, 2009, 04:30 AM
"most people are other people, there thoughts are other peoples opinions, there lives are mimicary, there passions are quotations "

"When the gods wish to punish us they answer our prayers"

Yeh, maybe. But it sometimes makes for interesting entertainment.