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gladalive
August 14th, 2009, 08:09 AM
I have no risk factors for HIV but have been HIV positive for over 7 years now. I still hold fast to my beliefs that HIV does not cause AIDS, but a little over a year ago I became quite ill after my father died. I had stopped sleeping, had a stressful job and family problems, and had stopped eating anything remotely nutritious. I developed extreme fatigue where I could hardly get out of bed and constant up and down fevers that sometimes went up to 99.7 degrees. I was forced to leave work and luckily I was granted disability which I had to really fight for because my CD4 count at the time was about 350. I am 38 years old.

Within the last year I have progressively been feeling better but still have the similar up and down fevers to before although my energy levels are greatly improved but I still suffer from fatigue. Ironically, my CD4 cells have steadily gone down over the last year even though I have also steadily felt better. Since getting sick I have agressively pursued alternative health therapies such as vitamin supplementation, a radically healthy diet, positive visualizations, and weekly acupuncture.

Within about the last 5 months my CD4 count has dropped to be in the 100's. Currently it is at 101. I am frankly unsure as to whether or not your CD4 count is a direct marker as to your overall health. Up until now, I have never had any AIDS defining illnesses and overall feel better than before. I do believe that I have something wrong with my immune system in general but do not think AIDS caused by HIV is the reason for it.

I went to see the Kaiser doctor today and for the first time was diagnosed with oral thrush even though I have not taken any antibiotics in a few years. The diagnosis scared me to death even though I don't believe in the traditional AIDS paradigm because I know this is a clear sign my immune system is really not functioning as it should be. How ironic, I have oral thrush even though I never even get colds or the flu. Now I am concerned about developing something even worse and am just trying my best not to panic!!!

Does anyone have any suggestions? I am just doing my very best to calm down. Any advice is greatly appreciated. :eek:

Questions
August 14th, 2009, 09:43 AM
That's the one thing I don't really understand: if HIV doesn''t reall exist, why do almost all HIV-positive folk get the same symptoms at some point in their lives? Or am I wrong here?

JerseyFresh
August 14th, 2009, 01:31 PM
I've asked the SAME questions. Alot of things just dont make sense. and i always get into debates with people here about this. theyll say something along the lines of "oh your stress of your father dying and not eating could have caused this or that" I dont really buy it. I think that these things could have ADDED to whatever problem is occuring. But you're a good example of it... you have HIV... you havent taken any of the meds and your immune system is taking a dive. I dont know how to explain this in any other way but im also not saying it IS the cause i'm just saying it seems to sound like the most logical

SadunKal
August 14th, 2009, 01:49 PM
Questions, JerseyFresh, do you know how the "HIV tests" were designed?

Read this, should help clarify certain things: Document:Circular Reasoning Scandal - AIDS Wiki (http://www.reviewingaids.com/awiki/index.php/Document:Circular_Reasoning_Scandal)

SadunKal
August 14th, 2009, 02:05 PM
Welcome to the AME gladalive.


I do believe that I have something wrong with my immune system in general ...

Why is that exactly?

And yes you should do your best to calm down. Why do you even panic so much if you really don't believe in the evil virus theory? Even if your body is weakened nothing should be able to stop you from regaining strength, no? Clearly you lack confidence in your own contra-mainstream beliefs. Maybe you should work on that. But know that oral thrush isn't specific to those who test "positive". And malnutrition or lack of sleep can certainly render you weak enough for something like that. Maybe you should think about how your oral health was in general too, prior to the thrush.

StarZ
August 14th, 2009, 02:06 PM
Could this be moved to health section.

You could have syphillis, did you get tested for that?

Questions
August 14th, 2009, 02:23 PM
Questions, JerseyFresh, do you know how the "HIV tests" were designed?

Read this, should help clarify certain things: Document:Circular Reasoning Scandal - AIDS Wiki (http://www.reviewingaids.com/awiki/index.php/Document:Circular_Reasoning_Scandal)

I understand thai and it's outrageous, but why do all "positive" people get the same afflictions - whether they're on the meds or not? The way I read it is that HIV isn't meant to "cause" any illnesses (even in the traditional understanding) but facilitate it. But why do all those with HIV have such a drastically compromised immune system that makes them develop the symptoms of HIV as we know them. You sort of think that there must be something there, even if the scientists haven't quite got it right on what it is :(

StarZ
August 14th, 2009, 02:29 PM
I know! But they don't get KS!

I think its about what would go wrong first anyway? Lots of fungal spores in the air everywhere. If you start to get ill, and end up immune compromised somehow the fungus comes first. Its the same in cancer folk post chemo and people after they start taking ARVs in immune recovery syndrome. I think if you mess with it this is what happens.

kstokely2
August 14th, 2009, 02:30 PM
Dear Glad,

I agree with SadunKal on this one.
....But know that oral thrush isn't specific to those who test "positive". And malnutrition or lack of sleep can certainly render you weak enough for something like that.

He is correct in saying that thrush isn't specific to people who test positive. I've known a number of people who've had a form of candida who are not "positive".
And despite what others my think or say, all the factors mentioned, stress, family/personal trauma, lack of adequate (repair) sleep, poor diet (which I find the large majority of the population has) lack of exercise, environmental factors......
all of these will slowly break down immunity. You will be more susceptible to many things, including colds, sore throat, swollen lymphs, thrush, digestive issues....etc

And on a final note, I really don't believe that CD4 counts have that much to do with it. Upon my diagnosis, my t-cell count was 29. In 11 yrs on the drugs, it never went much above 250ish, and usually in the low 100's.
After I quit all the poisons, the very last t-cell count I had done was at 96.
I have never had any opportunistic infections or candida. (I do NOT say that in a bragging way, it's just a fact, in my case)
Plus, I have heard Gary Null speak about doing lab tests on his group of vegan marathon runners. The ALL had low cell counts (100's) at the time of training and race. And they were the epitomy of health.

My advice: hang in there, don't panic, don't be led to believe something that may not be true, continue doing research on what real health and healing is all about, and above all, keep asking questions.

Sincerely,
Karri
Rethink AIDS (Karri Stokely) | MySpace (http://www.myspace.com/rethinkaids)

Questions
August 14th, 2009, 02:35 PM
I like Karri's story, as that's the best sort of "evidence" imo. But how many other Karris are there (recorded) out there?

PS Does the viral load have any significance? As far as I know, the drugs are all about bringing this down. Does it mean anything?

lightanddarkbalance
August 14th, 2009, 03:20 PM
Gladalive -

A few questions which would better help to determine if you fall into the primary catergory of personal misrepresenting health history, and or having little or nothing wrong with you except going to an allopathic doctor who needs you ill - no matter how false and flakey the diagnosis.

The doctor knows your western blot test positive ( HIV ) - correct ?
How regularily do you have appointments with this doctor.
What medically speciality is the doctor.
What were you feeling like recently before the last appointment. Feeling is real feedback from your body having nothing to do whatsover with any lab number drama or emotional states from religious events especially those from the cult of scientisim.
Did you personally notice any noticable difference in the appearance of your tongue before being told you have thrush. What was the basis of a diagnosis of thrush.
You mention that you have not had antibiotics in a few years - prior to that what was your history like - what type of illnesses, how often where you sick and how much antibiotic use did you have.
Your up and down fevers - how frequent are they - how high does your temperature go and what treatments did you take for them.
What RX drugs have you been on since your western blot false positive and what RX drugs were you on prior to that.

These questions are necessary to understand what is happening. What always happens is either misrepresentation on the part of a person which fails to accurately provide information, and or diagnositic incompetence by doctors. There are no mystery conditions. The number of sick people worldwide who have no known reasons but a HIV test to explain their condition totals ZERO.

T.rex
August 14th, 2009, 06:13 PM
hmmm... you do realize that you're "father dying, stopped sleeping, stressful job, family problems, stopped eating anything remotely nutritious" would all take a toll on your immune system, and none of which have anything to do with disease?

i tend to believe that whether hiv exists or not, or whether its lethal or not, is not the main question. The question is, is someone who has a reactive hiv antibody test correlated to die young?

Maybe that test isn't finding hiv, but maybe its triggered by something funky going on in your body. I think all of us who have had a reactive hiv antibody test, have something going on in our body that 'neg' people do not. It might not be hiv... it might not be fatal, but it might be something that we should take care of ourselves.

eat properly. exercise. (even if you don't feel like exercising... force yourself to, and eventually, the fatigue will be replaced by energy). dread will be replaced by optimism.

kstokely2
August 14th, 2009, 06:17 PM
Well said T Rex! Exactly!

HansSelyeWasCorrect
August 14th, 2009, 07:47 PM
The evidence is now clear: emotional stress can lead to things like enhanced pro-inflammatory cytokine production. However, years after my major health crisis, I am still experimenting with diet. I have found that if I eat a food item with more than a small amount of unsaturated fatty acids, my skin gets spots of inflammation, and sometimes I begin to develop a chalazion on the eyelid. If, as the evidence makes clear, most "disease" in "advanced nations," is due to inflammation/inflammatory molecules, then it may be necessary to make major dietary changes (assuming your diet is rich in UFAs, which is usually the case in such nations).

gladalive
August 14th, 2009, 07:54 PM
Thanks everyone for their replies.

In particular, I appreciate Kerri's which was quite helpful. Thanks so much for the info on the Gary Null study and on your own T Cell count. That made me feel better.;)

I once again reiterate that I do not believe HIV is the cause of AIDS. I do, however, believe that more people who develop AIDS test positive for HIV because of the likelihood of increased foreign proteins in people's systems that have been exposed to a lot of toxins. I know I have been exposed to a lot of toxins and that currently I am still on toxic overload. When I try to go on more intense detox programs I suffer from diarrhea which means I have a definite toxicity problem. I am soon going to pay for an independant lab to test me for parasites (which greatly contribute to creating toxicity in the body) as an alternative health care provider of mine thinks this is wise. A very large percentage of the immune system resides in the intestines and would be affected by any problems there.

So, I still think that the oral thrush is a scary thing because it is a marker of immune systems problems. AIDS is still out there -- it doesn't matter that HIV is totally unsubstantiated. The fevers I have had for over a year and fatigue also point to a compromised immune system.

I agree with Kerri that lack of sleep, poor diet, grief and stress initially brought on my immune system problems. What currently stresses me out is I am unsure what to do about my immune problems. Testing for parasites is the best answer I have at the moment because all the other great things I have been doing for my health for about the last year have obviously not been enough. In general, the fact that I have oral thrush which I have never had before gives me a creepy sensation and makes me feel a little panicky.

Any other constructive advice from anyone out there?
Thanks!!

lightanddarkbalance
August 14th, 2009, 08:40 PM
Gladalive,

In my post # 11 on this thread I stated that people who misrepresent their history and doctors who give misdiagnosises are the reasons why reports of illness are not a mystery. I asked you for specific details regarding your history and the doctor's behavior to see if the mystery of your alleged thrush is not really a mystery but the result of misrepresentation / misdiagnosis.

You had no response- that is curious to say the least considering you posted to gain understanding.

I repeat the questions.

In answer to your request for constructive advise I have this - eliminate errors of omission, whether by accident or intentional, that distort the picture.

SadunKal
August 14th, 2009, 09:42 PM
Tricia, since you appear to be rather fragile psychologically, with your tendency to panic relatively easily, I would suggest you to focus more on strengthening your mind to be able to deal with difficulties in a calmer, healthier and more confident way. There is always room for improvement for such things, and in your case it might be especially beneficial.

gladalive
August 14th, 2009, 10:15 PM
Light&darkbalance:
Thanks so much for your interest. Yes, I did not give you a really complete picture of my health.

To answer your questions, yes, my doctor knows I am HIV positive. He is a "specialist" in HIV according to my mainstream health care provider. I see him about every three months, but the only reason I see him is to get my disability extended because I am still not healthy enough to work a regular job. Seeing as my health care provider did not want to diagnosis me with anything other than HIV this is what I have to ask for disability for.

When I first became ill I barely got out of bed for three months and for three or four months after that I continued to have extreme fatigue that made it difficult to do anything significant. For the last 6mths or so I have been feeling better than before, still with fatigue but not so much that I cannot accomplish anything. I thankfully have periods when I am feeling pretty well throughout the day but my energy levels are still unpredictable. This is how I had been feeling before my appt. with my doctor. Lately my fevers have been in the low 99's to sometimes 99.8 and my temperature is also normal off and on. My body temperature fluctuates quite a bit throughout the day. I usually run some sort of at least lowish grade fever most days. I see my acupuncturist for the fever on a weekly basis. I have never taken anything orally to lower them.

No, I did not notice any difference in the appearance of my tongue before my doctors visit. My doctor diagnosed it as oral thrush because of small white patches that can be seen when using a flashlight that are on the back of my throat near my uvula. Other than that, I have no symptoms of oral thrush.

Before the last year I would estimate that I have taken antibiotics once every couple years and only if I thought I really needed them.

Right before I first became sick about a year and 3 mths ago I had been taking a host of sleeping medications off and on because I had such difficulty sleeping. I had been taking Ambien and Trazadone. I stopped the usage of both due to side effects before becoming really ill. Right after becoming really ill my mainstream doctor presscribed Ativan to me to be taken three or four times a day for sleeplessness and some anxiety intially over being sick. I took it continuously for two weeks and then tried to stop taking it cold turkey but started shaking like with delirium tremens. I then realized I was physically addicted to it and had too wean myself off of it very gradually throughout the period of about 3 months. Since then I have not been taking any drugs whatsoever, even over the counter. Other than this, my history of any other drugs has been minimal. When I was first told I was HIV positive about 7 years ago I took Prozac for a few months. Right after I was told I was positive I took very low doses of methotrexate because of really bad psoriasis I had had since a child that had gotten progressively worse as I got older despite use of stronger and stronger topical steroids. I took the methotrexate for about 6mths and then stopped due to it making me feel tired. Within the last year my psoriasis has totally disappeared even though I now use no treatments for it. For a couple years I had also been a regular drinker because I really liked beer but stopped all of this about 6 years ago due to bad hangovers the next day. I think that pretty much sums up my drug usage.

Do you have any suggestions? I appreciate it very much.

gladalive
August 14th, 2009, 10:25 PM
Sadunkal: You certainly do not have enough info/expertise to evaluate my psychological state of being.

SadunKal
August 14th, 2009, 11:34 PM
It wasn't exactly an evaluation. And sorry. You sound offended, which ideally shouldn't have been the case and unfortunately supports my speculation. Do you disagree with what I said regarding there being room for improvements? Are you absolutely sure that you're currently in the healthiest, most empowered mental state possible?

gladalive
August 14th, 2009, 11:55 PM
light&darkbalance;
Once again, I appreciate you wanting to take the time to get to know some more about me. I am not sure what your background is but am open to any constructive info.

gladalive
August 15th, 2009, 12:59 AM
Karri; How did you feel when your CD4 count was 29?

I really appreciate your input, it has already helped a lot.

gladalive
August 15th, 2009, 01:08 AM
Sandunkal; Maybe you should spend more time evaluating yourself instead of other people. Then you might be doing something useful.

gladalive
August 15th, 2009, 01:15 AM
TRex: Thanks for your opinion. Good info and I agree.

lightanddarkbalance
August 15th, 2009, 01:25 AM
Gladalive,

Trica, everything about your health makes perfect sense after learning of a more detailed health history.

First the diagnosis of "a little trush" that can only be seen with a flashlight on a tongue that to the naked eye looks the same as it always looked in a person who is feeling better than in years is a suspcious diagnosis. The scope of incompetency with the medical profession is staggering. How many millions of Americans who don't have imbeciles shinning flashlights down their throat would be told they have thrush if they were in the risk group of the flashlight detectives is anybodies guess. Suffice to say that this is borderline at best - flakey most likely.

Your health history is rather intense with quite a clear picture that can explain your symptoms of tiredness, western blot test reactive false positive, and slight fever. With or without trush you have in your background everything required to have the candida to create trush and the intestinal dysbiosis to explain all your symptoms.

Psoriasis is, in the opinion of many, always an effect of a toxic blood stream. The body will use secondary areas of elimination to try and dump toxins that are not being adequately filtered out of the blood. The skin is a major dumping site. In almost all cases the blood has been overburdened by the failing of the 2 primary filters that are no longer protecting the blood stream. The core filter is the liver and when it becomes blocked the blood becomes toxic. The intestines should be providing a protective seal preventing impure fluids from digestion entering the blood stream. The intestines have 70% of the bodies immune cells for good reason. The inner boundary between the outide world and the inner world of the blood and the gateway to the cells is the lining of the intestines. If the "immunity becomes damaged" the blood will be toxic and the primary filter the liver can become blocked.

The controling factor of the immune system when all the biochemical quasi science is put aside is the lining of the intestines which must have the proper environment of healthy bacteria to prevent blood toxification. When the bacteria shift from healthy strains to non healthy strains all types of problems arise. The forerunner to yeast and fungal problems is with few exceptions always preceeded with intestinal bacteria dysbiosis. This is treatable and reversable but only if specific measures that I will mention in a bit are are taken.

One of the most common consequences of the malabsorption and self poisoning of intestinal dysbiosis immune syndrome is fatigue.

Homeopaths correctly observed over 150 years ago that the suppression of skin conditions was the single greatest factor in the devopement of chronic disease. Later on with antibiotics medical suppression as the single greatest factor in chronic disease reached new Frankensteinian heights. If the wisdom body would be desecrated by applying suppressive lotions to the skin the disease would be driven deeper inside. The taking of local stronger and stronger topical steroids for many years and a horrible very dangerous drug like methotrexate is more than enough reason to create all type of internal issues including a steady state of auto intoxicated antigenic stress that could trigger a western blot positive. Drinking beer which is high glucose fuel for bacteria and fungus and eating junk food, is along with RX drugs, the very best way to create microbial havoc.

I suspect you have never none the things that are necessary to heal the intestinal lining. The intestines must be restored and the liver must be unblocked. There is no way around this. Taking a good diet, some vitamins and accupunture will help but not be able to heal this.

Everyone who has a body and especially everyone who has bacterial, fungal imbalance must address both their intestines and liver. The intestines require a number of things, first and foremost a very high quality probiotic such as Highest Strength. Doctor Recommended. Works Fast! | Theralac (http://www.theralac.com) -. The liver must be unblocked and a good liver education can be speedily obtained by listening to the radio interview on the liver detox program and reading some articles on the website Welcome to Ener-Chi Wellness Center: Your Trusted Source of Natural Healing Methods (http://www.ener-chi.com)

There is no reason you shouldn't have fine health once the bacteral lining of the immune system is restored in the intestines, the bad bacteria and yeast and fungal toxins are cleared and the liver restored.

The idea that much of your problem is parasites and doing a parasite cleanse something I would strongly caution against. The order of internal loss of microbial balance almost always begins with bacteria and next goes to fungus. Parasites are much lower as a factor and are rarely primary and often play hardly any role at all. This is especially true with a history of RX drug suppression created illness like you have. Futhermore, parasite cleansings requires harsh herbal tissue irritant remedies which can be very stressful to the intestinal lining. In a person whose intestines are inflammed for years with dysbiosis, harsh herbs can make them worse - even much worse.

Good luck but better than luck take right action.

gladalive
August 15th, 2009, 04:19 AM
Light and Dark Balance,
I appreciate very much all the info you sent back to me! I had a chance to review the website and like it. I also believe that I agree with your advice. It certainly appears to be some of the best advice I have gotten in a while.

The website talks about how you need to detox every major system of the body in order to regain ideal health. I am sure that I can figure out the liver detox part which, by the way, I have not done enough of. How to detox the rest of my body and get rid of yeast overgrowth is something I am still unclear on as the website did not offer much info that I could find on this. The probiotic you reccomended does, though, definitely sound like a good idea.

Do you have any more specific reccomendations that you could find the time to share? I have tried juice detoxification, such as is reccomended by Dr Schultz, before but have trouble on this type of detox as I am also hypoglycemic which I also think is due to intestinal dysbiosis.

Does anyone perhaps know of any alternative health care practitioners in my area that I could consult to make sure I get this detox thing right? I live in San Rafael, CA USA.

Any specific advice on how to cure my intestional dysbiosis in general is appreciated.

Thanks Again.

SadunKal
August 15th, 2009, 07:59 AM
Sandunkal; Maybe you should spend more time evaluating yourself instead of other people. Then you might be doing something useful.

Very well, but I'd still recommend you to think about those questions I asked in my previous message. Pretend that they were asked by someone you love and respect if that will work for you. Those are not unimportant questions. Ask Karri.

StarZ
August 15th, 2009, 10:03 AM
The worst thing about being poz is the fear.

HIV is nothing if not the fear that chills. Angry people make bad decisions, scared people make worse decision. Trust me on this, I am functional angry, scared Im catatonic. Getting over the fear of the stats, getting the courage to go in and give blood knowing I will be destroyed if they are lower, even as I know in that moment I am in perfect health. Try slaying that dragon on for size.

All I can say is you are not going to die. I am not dead that is how I know its not as bad as you have been led to believe. I am so full of vaccine and all that drama and it doesn't look good on paper but they are always wrong on the prognosis. If you act diligently you can get over this hump and be better for it.

kstokely2
August 15th, 2009, 03:41 PM
Dear Glad,

When I was first dx as "pos" in 1996, my CD4 was 29. It was appx one year after a horrific c-section with my second child. Wasn't actually "sick" with anything. Just felt tired, fatigue, no energy, couldn't get through my day.....etc
Not to mention, I had a 3 1/2 yr old and a 1 yr old by then. Both pregnancies were difficult, but the deliveries were even worse.

Once I was put on the drugs, I continued to feel that way, but I just got used to it. I think women are pretty strong, and sometimes you just have to suck it up and do what you have to do. Especially when there's children involved. It wasn't optional for me to NOT get out of bed, or lay around on the couch all day. I HAD to function. So, I learned to live with a lot of the symptoms, including a constant, non-stop headache for 11 yrs.
They told me it was because of advanced HIV disease, because I had full-blown AIDS.
They seemed to like to use that phrase a lot back then. I don't know if they still tell patients that as much, but for someone who just kind of felt shitty, but not sick with anything, that was a pretty strong term to be throwing around so casually (in retrospect).

So overall , I thought I was pretty healthy and doing very well. My doc never told me that all of my symptoms were most likely drug related.

Now, off the drugs and the last t-cell count being 96, if feel fantastic.
So, I don't believe it's necessarily t-cell count high or low related, I think it's drug related. Feeling terrible I mean.

And to SadunKal, I'm sure you must mean well, I think it's your delivery that offends so many people.
But you know what people, this is waaaaaay too small of a fish bowl to constantly be fighting with each other.

To Your Good Health and Healing,
Karri

G Man
August 15th, 2009, 06:03 PM
Now, off the drugs and the last t-cell count being 96, if feel fantastic. So, I don't believe it's necessarily t-cell count high or low related, I think it's drug related.

I agree. I don't even know what my numbers are, and I don't care. If you went to a regular 'HIV specialist' with that CD4, he would tell you you have AIDS and you're going to die soon just based on that number alone. What they DON'T tell you is that 'negative' people get numbers under 300 all the time. This CD4 fluctuates, sometimes dramatically, in all people. This is why it is completely meaningless to me, there is no control, I don't understand how they can keep telling people they're going to die just based on this number!

lightanddarkbalance
August 15th, 2009, 06:46 PM
Trica,

I will be sending you a personal email a little later. Its best to find out a bit more about your specifics before giving detailed suggestions.

Some clarifications for those reading this chain are in order.

If there are exceptions in the industrialized world to the equation NO DRUGS NO AIDS, I have never seen it. More to the point would be for the mantra for all chronic diseases would be, no RX DRUG SUPPRESSION NO CHRONIC DISEASE - with the exception of dietary induced damage this mantra is generally dead on true in the vast number of cases.

To generalize again, with few exceptions the pattern of disease creation follows the toxification of the body by damage to the immune system which is the intestinal lining, and then in most cases, a blocking of the blood filter and the central chemical factory of the body the liver.

The reversal from the inflammation and tissue stress that follows systemic toxification requires that the intestinal environment be healed and the liver be cleared. All disease names are localized labels that share the common characteristics of inflammation/congestion. Without the breakdown of the immunity of intestinal lining and the breaching of the liver defense's the self created inflammatory/congestive processes would not happen.

Healing requires restoring the gut ecology and clearing the liver. If the gut is too damaged detoxifying the liver will be too stressful on the the system. The general notion of detoxifying the body or as gladalive refers to, as detoxifying the whole body, can lead to trouble. Detoxification is essential but the how and where and in what order are the details that determine success or not. Many indiscrimate detoxificatoin programs will not work and will even make a person worse - sometimes much worse.

The best metaphor for healing is to view the body as a flowing river that branches out into many smaller streams. The root core river is the blood and lymph fluid which is created by the food and liquid intake, protected by the intestinal lining and the liver. If the protections are damaged the streams becomes sick. Repairing the root defenses is required. All symptomatic treatment both natural and allopathic will never bring true healing. Allopathic symptomatic treatments in all but acute emergency situations will always leave the health worse off. RX suppression is that main reason, along with corporate junk food, that chronic disases develope.

N0 RX DRUGS NO AIDS -
NO RX DRUGS, NO JUNK FOOD, NO CHRONIC DISEASE -
NO RESTORATION OF IMMUNE INTESTINAL DISORDER AND LIVER
FUNCTION NO RECOVERY

gladalive
August 15th, 2009, 08:06 PM
G Man: I appreciate your input. My CD4 just got measured at 64 yesterday. It keeps dropping fast, so I wonder if it is possible to get a zero CD4 and still be healthy... The only reason I get my CD4's tested is because they tell me I have to and I would like to keep my disability so I keep going in ***

Karri:Thanks for the reply back. Everything you have said has been quite helpful. I'll pose the same question to you that I did to G Man. Do you think it is possible to have virtually no CD4's or not at all and be healthy? I have read theories that say it is possible that blood counts of CD4's aren't accurate any way as a lot of the CD4's may only be found in lymph tissue...

Yeah, you are right. The fish bowl here is too small to fight so I will focus on the useful responses I get here, and there have been many. I really appreciate everyone's time.

Lightanddarkbalance, You have a way with words. Yes, it is the fear that slays so many people. I must admit that I am feeling much more calm and happier now particularly because of everyone's kind advice on the forum. I started trying a one part peroxide and two part water gargle four times a day and whatever is wrong with my mouth, thrush or not, seems to be going away.

I am still open to anyone out there that has any good info on how to get rid of candida and heal the intestinal lining. Like I posted before, I live in the US in San Rafael, CA and am having trouble finding qualified alternative health care practicioners if any one knows of any.

This forum is great! Thanks to everyone!:D

gladalive
August 15th, 2009, 08:09 PM
Lightanddarkbalance,
Just got your last post and need more time to respond to it but wanted to let you know.

kstokely2
August 15th, 2009, 08:22 PM
Glad,

To your question: Do you think it is possible to have virtually no CD4's or not at all and be healthy?


I definitely think you can be healthy with very few CD4's. I was. Can it be an indicator that something else MIGHT be wrong? I'm not sure. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe it indicated SOMETHING was wrong in me, like spending a month in the hospital with a systemic infection due to c-section, almost dying, then being drugged nearly to death, antibiotics ,pain meds...etc
And not to mention NO NUTRITION whatsoever for that month. Come on, we're talking hospital food. I'm lucky to have come out of there alive!

Lots of super healthy people with very few t-cells and sick people with t-cells in the 6,7, 800's +. I'm not sure how much cell counts actually have to do with true health status. I don't worry about it. I could really care less. My body tells me how I feel.
I will NEVER have another CD4 or V.L. done again.
It's all part of the voodoo, my friend.
I'm kind of surprised that they are MAKING you get these worthless tests just to continue to receive your disability.
I don't do them any more (haven't since my very last one Aug 2007)
Although, my "nurse" and case worker don't come out to see me any more, I think "no more Ryan White stuff". But it has never affected my SSD.
Nor will it!
I have paid dearly.
And so will they.
Until the day I die.
Hopefully at the ripe old age of 96 (from AIDS)

HansSelyeWasCorrect
August 15th, 2009, 09:16 PM
From what I remember, Treg cells can decrease the CD4 count, and this is due to the amount of antigenic exposure you have endured. This also seems to be what the antibody "HIV test" measures, so it's no surprise that those who "test positive" often also have low CD4 counts. Here is an on-point statement:

"Oral delivery of antigens is a well-established mechanism of tolerance induction, whose physiologic purpose likely relates to prevention of harmful immune responses to food proteins and bacterial antigens present in the mucosal flora.31-33 Low doses of oral antigens induce Trs, whereas high doses result in clonal anergy or deletion..."

Source: Blood -- Antigen-induced regulatory T cells (http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrary.org/cgi/content/full/104/1/26)

The entire paper is very good, though a bit "technical." Basically, what happens is that your body gets used to all kinds of foreign proteins, to a degree that prevents it from attacking the supposedly "bad bugs." However, I find this model to be sorely lacking. Even in such a state, one can keep the "bugs" from becoming problematic by simple things like dietary changes. Briefly, you eat antioxidant-rich foods and avoid foods that tend toward oxidative stress. The worst foods to eat are cooked meat (especially if cooked with the usual fat sources) and food items rich in unsaturated fatty acids. Cholesterol can also be a problem, if it's oxidized. There was one study, for example, that found that steaming salmon generated a lot more oxidized cholesterol than any other common cooking technique.

UPDATE: This is really on-point, and also not too technical:

"T helper cells are specific T cells that have receptors that recognize and bind to fragments (known as antigens) of the invaders that already have been displayed on the surface of other immune system cells. (These T helper cells are also called CD4 T cells since they express CD4 molecules.) Once the antigen has been bound, these T helper cells become activated, and they morph into "effector" cells which then boost an immune response by secreting "cytokine" molecules such as interleukins and interferons."

Source: http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/life_sciences/report-49950.html

This is consistent with what is often found in "AIDS patients," that is, enhanced cytokine activity, but note that they mention that the CD4+ cells change into different kinds of cells. This seems to explain the low CD4+ cell levels, with no "HIV" required.

StarZ
August 16th, 2009, 01:00 AM
Okay so you are saying the lab work is of no use at all at determining a prognosis? T4 are limited in the subject but they produce a signal that allows general body (non gland) cells in the proximity of infection to react adequately to inflammation by indicating to other general body cells to do like wise to attract the attention of which cells? (Im I right to this point because beyond it I am clueless) More T8? macrophages? neutrophils? until you have a puss ball all swinging at the pathogen? Are these on my standard labs?

I always thought it was a better idea to add cd4 to cd8 or something to get a better picture!):confused:

HansSelyeWasCorrect
August 16th, 2009, 03:29 AM
I found the citation in the nutrition book I mentioned previously. In "Modern Nutrition in Health and Disease," by Shils and Young, 7th edition, page 597, there is an explicit statement about blood transfusions.

Also, I found a book that talks about this phenomenon at length. It is "Immunological Effects of Blood Transfusion" by Dharam P. Singal. You can read some of it on google books. Chapter 9 has more information than probably anyone here would ever want to know !

jee
August 16th, 2009, 06:02 PM
Hans,

What does a blood transfusion discussion have to do with the issues raised here by the original poster? Majority of people don't require or have a BT in their lives.

I have also always believed that stress as a cause for low CD4 and thrush is way over-stated. I think millions of people are overly stressed all around the world, including many in the first-world, yet they are not seeing thrush or coming down with pnuemonia because of that.

You were very lucky that you found HCL supplements to fix your problems, but a lot of us have no clue what really ails us and how to fix it. I have tried almost everything under the sun, from natural treatments to yoga, meditation, diet changes, but I cannot rid myself of these very debilitating symptoms. Meds also are not an option for me because I've been on them once and they caused their own sets of problems without altering my CD4 numbers very much. VL is a different issue as I don't believe that they truly measure the amount of virus in the blood.

As I see it, with or without hiv, with or without treatment, it seems very dire. I will post in another thread to ask what steps one must take to prepare for the worst outcome, like will preparation, etc.

SadunKal
August 16th, 2009, 07:18 PM
Pull yourself together Jee. You need to get out of your pessimistic mindset. Don't let yourself be the victim of your own beliefs. Focus on psychology. It should be your priority. You should learn to love life, and really become willing to get better and live it fully. Do you have a family, friends? Anyone you can rely on? Talk to people.

HansSelyeWasCorrect
August 16th, 2009, 07:43 PM
jee:

I was asked explicitly about this topic by another poster, MrA I think, and I was responding with the citations he wanted. You may be right that I mixed up the threads. In any case, the early SF "AIDS cases" often were given multiple transfusions, along with all kinds of other really dangerous "treatments" by their doctors, and given what is (and was) known about BTs, it's no surprise that they died (they were not well-to-do people, for the most part, and just went back to their unhealthy lifestyles). I think two doctors explicitly stated that the "medicine" they were giving their patients could be the cause of the PCP diagnoses, so just imagine combining that with several BTs. This is "death by doctor." "AIDS" was caused by the lifestyle (including new fat sources in the diet, which were/are immunosuppressive) combined with the "good intentions" of the doctors these people were "treated" by. Later, the AZT probably did most of the killing.

gladalive
August 16th, 2009, 10:00 PM
Lightanddarkbalance,
I've done a lot of "detox" on my own in the past before I got really sick and don't think I really did it right. I think it helped but did not ultimately heal my intestinal lining. Good input about sometimes the liver can't be cleared until the intestines are in better shape. I don't know if you have a good book possibly to reccomend on clearing the liver and healing the intestines... Certainly, if I found an alternative health care person that really knows his stuff it would not only save me time, energy, and resources but I wouldn't just be doing my best to figure out treatments on my own when I am not an expert. I do, however, believe the answer is out there that will help me get better. I think you are right about the general steps I need to take, I just need to figure out the right way to do everything. I'll wait for your email to see what it contains.

Jee, Hang in there. I know what it's like to be sick and unsure what to do about it. I am determined, however, to find the answer to feel better. I just know that it is out there for you and for me.

Karri, Yeah, I agree that some of the best sort of "revenge" against all the HIV dogma is proving to everyone that we can live a long healthy life. Die at 96 from AIDS! Funny.

As far as getting my blood counts done goes, I have not even been approved for disability from social security yet. They are fighting my case. My doctor and the disability companies only want to base how I am feeling on my CD4 count as I have no other symptoms of AIDS. Unless they consider thrush one of them. I think it would affect the continuation of my disability if I stop doing the blood counts as it's the main marker everyone wants to look at. It's interesting that my traditional HIV doctor actually looked a little bit pleased when he found the "oral thrush". It seemed like previously he had been confused by why I am not even sicker and was glad he found something that backs up his paradigm of what he thinks AIDS is all about. Time before last when I saw this doctor his final words to me were that "he would see me in the hospital". Well, I certainly have not been in any hospitals. I think this is confusing to him and am more than happy to prove him wrong.

Thanks again for your opinion on the CD4's. Very helpful. I checked out your myspace and liked it.

Hans, Good info. Especially the part about how once CD4 cells use themselves against antigens they change into different types of particles, which certainly would affect how many of the CD4's are found in the bloodstream if they are changing over all the time in order to further boost the immune system response.

Thanks Again Everyone

lightanddarkbalance
August 16th, 2009, 11:47 PM
Trica -
I sent you an email yesterday on AME - you should be able to find it by checking "notifications" which is directly under your name in the upper right hand corner.

dissidentsg
August 17th, 2009, 08:54 AM
I have stopped keeping track of my CD4s or VL for more than 4 years now...

T.rex
August 17th, 2009, 05:44 PM
I've never once had my CD4 or viral load checked... in fact, i've never even been in to see an hiv specialist. My count could be currently 12, or it could be 1200... i have no idea.

After my diagnosis, the answers to these tests were a huge stress to me.. i knew i was supposed to go have the numbers ascertained... The stress of the foreboding cd4 counts was really making me sick. One day, i was trying to make an appointment to go in and take the tests, but then it hit me... i was allowing this fearful thinking and cd4 counts dictate whether i had good health or bad health. .. some invisible marker which didn't even have a good track record was totally stressing me out.

I decided, to hell with the counts. There was no rule that i had to go in every 3 months and base my health on cd4 count. Why not just live life? I am healthy. That was 2 years ago. Haven't even had the sniffles in that whole time. But i know that i was dealing with the stress of cd4 count, i'd be sick all the time.

gladalive
August 18th, 2009, 12:05 AM
TRex,
I can see how for a lot of people getting their CD4's checked would be quite stressful. It has been for myself in the past but lately have just decided to focus on how much healthier I am instead of the counts, seeing as I can't avoid getting my blood drawn. The info I have gotten on the forum about low CD4's has also helped. I've actually felt considerably better as my CD4 has plummeted down which would definitely seem to prove that how a person actually feels is usually the most accurate marker of what real health is all about.

moonchild493
August 18th, 2009, 12:23 AM
Hi Tricia,

With regard to restoring your intestinal flora, I recommend you check out Wild Fermentation (http://wildfermentation.com). It seems simplistic, but lacto-fermented veggies can work wonders. You might also like to check out Donna Gates' The Body Ecology Diet, Healthy Diets - BodyEcology.com (http://bodyecology.com). Sauerkraut is king! It can do wonders for your intestinal health, as can other lacto-fermented veggies. My doctor is very high on this. You might want to consider consuming some raw or pickled garlic, too.

I speak as someone who was sick enough to have no trouble at all getting disability. I am considerably better now but still have some problems. I regret that, after trying all manner of natural means, I had to resort to ARVs to improve. I'm off them again and do well, but I don't think I would have survived without them. I know this is not a popular stance around here, but I just kept getting sicker.

Anyway, I hope I have give you some food for thought. Sauerkraut is eay to make, and unpasteurized versions can be bought at places like Whole Foods. (It must be raw.) It sounds like we have much in common. Please let me know if you'd like to correspond by email. My address is available on my profile.

Peace,

Linda

resistanceisfruitful
August 18th, 2009, 02:23 AM
Mmmm... I have to chime in here. The local Whole Foods used to carry a brand of unpasteurized sauerkraut that was shredded very fine (not "Bubba's"). It was one the best tasting food I'd had from a jar in ages and I grew to crave it.

Now I'm in the process of making my own homemade sauerkraut for the third time. I'm trying to get by with using less salt.

I'm a kinda' picky eater and not a vegan or anything. Don't be afraid to at least give it a try. There are several websites with recipes, instructions, even youtube vids on how to make your own.




Hi Tricia,


Anyway, I hope I have give you some food for thought. Sauerkraut is eay to make, and unpasteurized versions can be bought at places like Whole Foods. (It must be raw.) It sounds like we have much in common. Please let me know if you'd like to correspond by email. My address is available on my profile.

Peace,

Linda

dissidentsg
August 18th, 2009, 04:02 AM
I remember on the very last day that I had my counts, I saw that both of my CD4 and VL counts have increased from the previous readings!

But the funny thing is that the doc didnt bother talking about the increased CD4s, rather he told me that my VL is up and I gotta get ready to be on the meds soon. That was 4yrs+ ago. Im thinking my VL today (in proportion to how much was raised then) could be in the 1000000000000000000000000000 range.

Hmm, maybe.

Since then, I have never stepped back into the clinic and neither have they contacted me (which is a great thing). I wish they be thinking that im "dead" already. In that way, hopefully my records may be destroyed too. Hee hee.

:cool:

T.rex
August 19th, 2009, 01:29 AM
But the funny thing is that the doc didnt bother talking about the increased CD4s, rather he told me that my VL is up and I gotta get ready to be on the meds soon. That was 4yrs+ ago. Im thinking my VL today (in proportion to how much was raised then) could be in the 1000000000000000000000000000 range.


All professions, from all walks of life, will try and sell you their services... Doctors are no different than lawyers, car mechanics, photographers. .... Its their business to convince you you need something. To tell a doctor you don't need his meds is akin to telling him that his profession is worthless to you.

just yesterday, i went to the eyedoctor, and for the 3rd year in a row, he non-chalantly mentioned lasik surgery, and recommended i see his buddy about it.
the last time i went to the dentist, he tried to kick me over to his orthodontist buddy for some extra work.... Its never enough to just take care of present symptoms... their job is composed of throwing as many services as possible at you.

gladalive
August 19th, 2009, 02:19 AM
Linda:Thanks so much for the book info and the info on the sauerkraut. I am going to definitely try making my own. I'm not even sure if I like sauerkraut but could make it any way.

If you ever want to email me direct feel free. Again, my email address is gladalive@yahoo.com. I am not sure how to read the profiles on this forum yet.

Resistanceisfruitful: I'll let you know how the sauerkraut turns out. I hear Whole Foods is expensive.

Dissidentsg: Yeah, the records thing is a problem. If I had had any idea I might turn out positive for their useless HIV tests I would have been tested anonymously as now it is a current mark on my health records, even though it is helping me with disability.

TRex: Yeah, my HIV doctor is basically worthless and then some. I am never going to go on his meds, even though he may not totally realize this. The problem with my HIV diagnosis being in the system is that whenever anything goes wrong with my health they are just going to want to blame the HIV instead of looking for other things that might be wrong with me. Very frustrating.

G Man
August 19th, 2009, 02:33 AM
Gladalive, I'm in the same boat. I'm not happy with having this label in my medical records. For one thing, I can no longer get medical insurance. Not that I need it, but it would be nice to have catastrophic coverage, say if I got in a bad car accident or something. Can't even get that, no one will cover me. And can't get govt coverage because I am way over the income threshold.

Keeping on topic with the CD4 count issue, I will never get one again. I just got a phone call yesterday from the HIV clinic. I haven't been there in a year, I thought they had written me off, but apparently they want me to come in and get my numbers run. I'm not going to do it, but one thing I am going to do is go get an anonymous HIV test this week, just to see what it says. I'm going in as a heterosexual who is in a monogomas relationship having protected sex, as I know the questionaire does have a bearing on what the result is.

dissidentsg
August 19th, 2009, 03:11 AM
gladalive - Try not to let the records haunt you. Let me share with u an experience of mine:

There was once I was going on a trip to China, and while on the plane, the stewardess got us to fill in this "Arrival Form" that included health declaration with qns such as "are you HIV/AIDS positive?". I tell you, that was the worst 2hr ride in my life. Even though I was a dissident then, the sheer thought of the authorities arresting me for lying swept my mind. It doesn't help that I was worried that my POZ-record was recorded down into my biodata since the day I reported to my local authorities for testing positive. Which means, maybe Authorities can view it at the Immigration Counter(?) (can anyone verify if the govt actually does this?) and use it as evidence against me. As a result of all these negative thoughts, i suffered from giddiness, nausea, headache, cold hands and feet and accelerated heart rate all during that time on the plane. It was sick.

Of course, the answer I gave on the Form was one typical of a dissident, but the fear only went away after I managed to pass through the customs without a scratch.

Looking back, I think it's pretty traumatising how a simple application form can ruin your entire day.

So do not let the records haunt you.


GMan - Good luck for the test. Remember that whatever the result is, we must try to stand strong and fight because the only great testimony for us as dissidents, is the good health that follows us in the years and years to come, despite being POZ.

cbwheel
August 19th, 2009, 06:09 AM
In response to the original post for this thread. Yes, T-Cells counts do matter to a certain extent. There are many people who live with stable low t-cell counts for a very long time, free of infections. There are many people here who are living proof of that. However, if a T-cell count continues to just fall and fall, down to zero, most people will die. You simply can live without any CD4+ cells. They are an essental part of the human immune system and are essential in the immune process for fighting infection. I have never heard of a person living with zero tcells. It sounds like your taking the right steps. Exercise, eating well, sleeping well and taking supplements. However, I always tell people, if it comes down to a life and death, take the ARV's at least temporarily until you can figure out your next move. They do in fact boost T-cell levels, even if its just temporarily. Good luck to you!

SteelyDanny
August 19th, 2009, 03:50 PM
I listened once to a mainstream HIV/AIDS case worker include in his spiel about one of their clients that had only 1 T-cell. Now, I know they are measuring per milliliter of blood, but does that mean that if they were to turn around and take another blood sample shortly after the count should still be about the same? What if the little guys (the CD4s) just "missed the bus" in a particular blood draw?

Considering that over 8+ years, my ex-HIV doctor was only interested in viral load and t-cell count, when all along my gradual decline from 500s to the 100s range over a 10 year span was being greatly influenced by the stress of the "numbers" game (no sickness, mind you, and I would have never even known anything was "wrong" if I wasn't getting these labs in the first place). I was supposed to make "informed" health decisions based on just that?

I've come to understand from reading this forum over the years that T-cells are not evenly distributed through your body and only about 3% of your T-cells are even found in your bloodstream. Plus, the body converts CD4s to CD8s depending on need. So even if T-cells are essential to life, how does one even know what the optimum count should be and if using blood sample counts is even a fair representation? Health is much more individual, with some commonalities many of us share, but what may or may not work for one may or may not work for another.

And with the viral load count, it never made sense to me (even before I really embraced the dissident views) how getting the levels to "undetectable" was supposed to be a huge accomplishment. You STILL are HIV+ and subject to the same life of living in a plastic bubble.

cbwheel
August 19th, 2009, 05:30 PM
Im not a hematologist, but will try to answer. As far as I know T-cells mature in the Thymus and are primarily found in lymphoid tissue. However, a substantial portion are found in the blood. A normal T-cell count is about 500
and up. However, as I mentioned, people have consistently low counts in the 300, 200 and 100 range for many years without serious problems. One T-cell sounds like a problem to me! If that one goes, you have zero t-cells in your blood, and then your in trouble! I have never heard of a cd4+ cell converting to a cd8 cell. They are two completely different classes of cells with different jobs. cd4 cells are helper cells. They do not actually fight infection. They are cells that essentially point other cells in the right direction to fight the infection. They do not do the killing. Cd8 are natural killer cells, which play a very huge role in killing infections. I think what you might be talking about are the inverted ratios that are often seen in HIV patients.

JerseyFresh
August 19th, 2009, 06:45 PM
. They are two completely different classes of cells with different jobs. cd4 cells are helper cells. They do not actually fight infection. They are cells that essentially point other cells in the right direction to fight the infection. They do not do the killing. Cd8 are natural killer cells, which play a very huge role in killing infections. I think what you might be talking about are the inverted ratios that are often seen in HIV patients.

If you believe that HIV causes this phenomenon why are you here? You are wrong about the CD4 cells. When they latch onto an invading foreign body their entire genetic make up is altered and they are no longer a "free floating cd4 cell" after the cell is used it doesnt jump off the invading germ and go back to work. its DEAD, over with, gone, you expel the dead cell and it is replaced by new ones. how can someone measure health by this number? take 10 HIV negative people and did CD4 counts they would all be drastically different. Healthy with a count of 100 (which by definition is AIDS even though healthy ppl have counts of 80 and 90) and sick people with counts of 500...how can you explain this? so imagine you were just sick, or not even sick but were invaded by a foreign particle but didnt get sick. and a good portion of your CD4's went through that process. well then you would have a lowered CD4 number. and yes MOST of your CD4's are NOT free floating in your blood. they are released through the very complex system of your lymphocyte structure based upon need. when they say you have 1 CD4 cell... they dont mean thats it, they took the one cell out of your body to test it. they mean 1 per ml. of blood. First off how many ML of blood do you have in your body!?!?!? that still leaves you a hefty amount of CD4s if thats how they work. second off you cant tell me that one CD4 isnt floating right next to another CD4 and "missed the bus" as the last person put it. that can definately happen. if it couldnt, then how come when you have a cut on your arm all available white blood cells rush to that cut to seal it up and prevent infection??? if you took blood in your arm during infection and blood from your legs... i would have to bet that the white blood cell ratio would be different between the two samples. and with all the germs and sicknesses we come into contact with every single day of our lives how can someone who has such a low CD4 count of one or two or even 50... NOT get sick with an opportunistic infection? because CD4 count has no barring on health. I see alot of people here say "oh i firmly believe my cd4 count effects my health, i didnt feel good at all as my CD4 count got lower" how do you k now that? i mean... its similar to being hypnotized. "you are getting sleepy... sleepy.... tick tock tick tock" and low and behold... you get tired. "hey your CD4 is going down you're going to get sick" and your response a few short weeks later "holy shit im really tired and run down" I'm tired every effin day... no matter how healthy i eat or work out or no matter what i do i can always just plop into bed and sleep. I am HIV negative... its called depression... your mind is CRAZY and totally in control of your body to most extents. How many people feel completely healthy and get a check up and then they say "sir you have cancer" and within a few short weeks they're skinny frail and waiting to die. had they not been told... who knows, maybe they live to be old and die of old age and not cancer. we just dont knkow.

cbwheel
August 19th, 2009, 11:16 PM
"If you believe that HIV causes this phenomenon why are you here?"

Would you like to point out precisely where or when I said HIV is the cause of the immune system dysfunction that I see primarily in my gay community?
Hmm? I dont think I ever said that, so please stop putting words in my mouth. I believe there are many other factors that can cause immune dysfunction, far too detailed to go into now. I was simply asserting that your cd4+ cells are there for a reason, they are necessary for life. If they dwindle to nothing, whether its in your bloodstream or in lymphoid tissues, chances are you will get sick. Non medicated Gay men continue to get opportunistic infections, often seen in third world countries, where poverty and malnutrition are rampant. They have practically no cd4 in their bodies, and quite frankly, as a person who has lost many people I cared about, I would like to know why. T-Cell counts are in fact important. However, what is more important is figuring out what is causing them to deplete down to practically nothing. I dont believe its HIV.

jee
August 20th, 2009, 04:03 AM
cbwheel,

that is indeed the million-dollar question as to what causes the drop in CD4. This question has NOT been scientifically answered by dissident scientists and doctors (I have asked in this forum many times). I have also e-mailed individually a few renowned dissidents, but nobody seems to have a good answer or I never hear back.

We know the game belongs to the orthodoxy as they are consistently proving that CD4 does drop over time with hiv infection and the lower the CD4, the higher risk of mortality.

Put aside poverty and malnourishment of the third world, this phenomenon of losing CD4 is happening world-over, including here in the US. Until the dissidents can figure out exactly why, and what you can do stop this depletion, I think we will end barking up a wrong tree. When you get sick, and your numbers are really low, you go insane trying to figure out alternative theories of this depletion.

Esp. if you are eating well, taking as good a care of yourself as possible, no smoking, drinking, drugs, nothing, and yet you are on a downward spiral.

What exact role does CD4 cells play in keeping one healthy is also of great interest. Can just one type of cells really shut down the immune system such? Isn't the whole process of immunity far more complex? And how can meds really increase CD4 cells, esp. when there are people who have gotten sick even with higher CD4 counts? Mind boggling, and downright depressing.

G Man
August 20th, 2009, 04:27 AM
jee I like the way you think, I really do. These questions need to be answered.

HansSelyeWasCorrect
August 20th, 2009, 05:08 AM
"Put aside poverty and malnourishment of the third world, this phenomenon of losing CD4 is happening world-over..."

I wouldn't be surprised, due to things like being over-medicated and eating an unhealthy diet, so I'm not sure what your point it. Until a study is conducted that measures everyone's CD4 counts (not just "HIV positive" people), and hopefully other possibly useful markers, there is nothing for "dissidents" to explain, unless they have the funding and decide not to do such an experiment.

In science, you can't compel others to believe in your assumptions. You must control properly so that your demonstrations are beyond doubt. Taking the CD4 counts (over time) of people told that they are "HIV positive" is really not telling us much at all, regardless of what the results of such a study would be.

cbwheel
August 20th, 2009, 05:29 AM
Jee,
Awesome post. Bravo! I agree 100%, it truly is the million dollar question.
Putting Hiv aside, I dont totally understand how a person could have 20 tcells per milliliter of blood and not be worried about that. I guess thats just me. Even if you dont believe in HIV, it indicates there is something afoul in your immune system. Of course counts fluctuate. They fluctuate from hour to hour sometimes. But if you are on steady consistent course of dropping from lets say 200 to 100 to 50 to 20 to 10 and so on, I think your in serious trouble.

In terms of importance, yes cd4+ cells are a critical part of the immune system, but just how critical I dont know. Ive never heard of a human being
living without them. Its funny, I remember in the earliest stories about AIDS, known as GRID back then, they always talked about how AIDS patients had deficiencies in many cells. Such as low B-cells and CD8s. After HIV was announced, those deficiencies werent even discussed anymore and all the focus went to the cd4 loss exclusively.

SadunKal
August 20th, 2009, 07:52 AM
...Until a study is conducted that measures everyone's CD4 counts (not just "HIV positive" people)...

Even if not exactly like that, there are studies going in that direction. I provided jee with a clear explanation for the cd4 decrease, but jee can't/won't take it seriously for some reason: http://forums.aidsmythexposed.com/alternative-medicine/5765-fungal-ear-infection-2.html#post35232

Maybe it doesn't apply to each individual's case but it certainly applies to most people labeled as "HIV positive". I don't understand how people can dismiss it.

StarZ
August 20th, 2009, 10:27 AM
Hans,

You were very lucky that you found HCL supplements to fix your problems, but a lot of us have no clue what really ails us and how to fix it. I have tried almost everything under the sun, from natural treatments to yoga, meditation, diet changes, but I cannot rid myself of these very debilitating symptoms. Meds also are not an option for me because I've been on them once and they caused their own sets of problems without altering my CD4 numbers very much. VL is a different issue as I don't believe that they truly measure the amount of virus in the blood.

As I see it, with or without hiv, with or without treatment, it seems very dire. I will post in another thread to ask what steps one must take to prepare for the worst outcome, like will preparation, etc.


Don't be so bleak. But you cant take it with you, its true. Everyone needs a will, poz or not! lol You are not helping the stress levels of the guy with thrush in his mouth so happy thoughts please!


VL is a crock, total waste of resources. I have decided to blank it totally from my health decision making.
I am hanging onto my fervent belief in CD4 for now but I think I will request 1 a year bloods.

StarZ
August 20th, 2009, 12:35 PM
Bact to thrush

Zinc Lozenges
Dont know why I didn't think of it before.
But I dont know if they make any with no sugar since this is for fungus but I would imagine this would be of help anyway if it ever became a real issue. I use Solgar which has cane sugar, they are not terribly sweet so i guess they are worth trying. They work very well as a first line when my throat is a mess. If i feel a bit of discomfort I pop one a day and get some citricidal in me for a few days, this seems to have cured the 3 week bouts of throat/tonsil pain I would get quite frequently, at least 4 times a year.

cdm
August 20th, 2009, 05:26 PM
Dear gladalive

CD4 are an enigma for the scientists, both dissidents or conventional . Do not care about it.. except if you are engaged in the cause of finding this out.
Bacteria, viruses, fungi are exploiting our incapability . Do not care either ..
Care about your fever. This is a natural and true sign of illness, in your body. If the fever comes and goes in waves or if it is low and steady this is not a good sign of health. It means your organism can not compensate a situation, whatever it is its cause, emotional, physical etc.
As long as you notice fever you must do something about it. Perhaps you have not given yet what your organism needs. Be patient because you have a lot of time to find the cause -both the external and the internal- and the appropriate cure. Be calm, this is your and our way.
Be always glad not only for life but even for death. This is the most difficult task. Yesterday during my work a rat rushed in the rooms. The women screamed, panic. "It is dangerous" said an old lady. "We are dangerous for him" I replied. I tried to help the ... rat. The brave men were willing to kill the unfortunate animal. I did not manage to persuade them not to kill it. I even did not think to leave a door open to help my little mammal brother to escape. I felt guilt for not managing my purpose.. But later when I calmed down I said to myself. "Stop feeling guilt" and I rejoiced although the thought of the mammal being bitten cruelly was fresh in my mind.
Guilt and fear and sadness are the enemies

JerseyFresh
August 20th, 2009, 06:31 PM
Care about your fever. This is a natural and true sign of illness, in your body. If the fever comes and goes in waves or if it is low and steady this is not a good sign of health. It means your organism can not compensate a situation, whatever it is its cause, emotional, physical etc.


Ive always been told that when you're sick your fever will not be constant (in most cases) but will come and go. when I was sick last month as I pointed out on another thread. I had a low fever of only 99.5 for about 4 days, but it would go up to 99.5 and then back down to 98.6 every few hours. When I'd wake up in the morning I'd have no fever at all, but as the day went on it would come and go. and then on the 5th day my fever went up to 100.6 and i felt worse than I had the entire time. I took a nap, and i woke up and was completely better. no lie... within like a 4 hour nap and it was gone. My point is, as long as I can remember in my life anytime I was sick it was fever at night, wake up in the morning and i always felt better, as the day went on i'd get sick again. SO basically i'm asking if you're saying that when we're sick we're supposed to just have a fever non stop from beginning to end until we're better?

cbwheel
August 21st, 2009, 12:38 AM
I think there is some confusion here about what constitutes a serious fever. I have been to many doctors in my lifetime and had many surgeries. All of them told me the same thing. Anything under 100 degrees fahrenheit is not really considered a fever. Normal body temp is a range, anywhere from low 90's all the way to 99.9. Human body temperature fluctuates dramatically during the day. It typically gets higher in the evening hours and then lowers when you go to sleep. 98.6, the traditional "normal" body temp was merely an average that was divised a very long time ago. It is not the standard anymore. Yes, some people have very low body temps all the time, so a jolt to 99.5 might be your body fighting off a minor infection, but its of very little consequence. Most doctors Ive seen tell me a fever does not even warrant treatment until it hits 101.1. Anything past 102 is considered serious. Hope this helps. I personally have temps that go as high as 99.5 all the time, and I feel perfectly healthy with no signs of illness.

whereistheproof
August 21st, 2009, 10:07 AM
well - i dont know why you say that most hiv+ get sick at some point. I am hiv+ for more than 22 years and have never had any what they call hiv related illness. for more than 10 years my Tcount went up and down like a yoyo from in between 200-600. stopped measuring that some 8 years ago. most people with hiv are actually healthy, many dont even know their status. the biggest killer is heart disease in the western world. aids follows eventually among 'others'.

cdm
August 21st, 2009, 11:19 AM
SO basically i'm asking if you're saying that when we're sick we're supposed to just have a fever non stop from beginning to end until we're better?

Yes I think you have understood what I am saying. This is one belief of some homeopathic schools. Especially Samuel Hahneman speaks about it in his book "Chronic Diseases" and the Greek school of Homeopathy has reproduced it, from whom I got the influence. They say that if you have a strong fever of small duration -1 or 2 days- coupled with a specific acute disease, for example, a grippe or an acute tonsillitis etc of intense and violent symptoms, this is a sign of good status of the organism. But if the symptoms are gentle and mild and you have a long lasting fever this is a serious indication of a chronic disease that is harbored in your organism. I might add that your vital force is not strong enough to deploy its general plan of defense in a sort of a blietzkrieg and in this way has to do some kind of guerilla attacks, hiding and striking whenever possible by the energy status of the organism. Because fever is the general outcome of all our defense forces, cytokines, leukotrienes, pyrogens, attacking cells etc, an indolent fever is a sign of immunodeficiency, a kind of AIDS if you excuse me using this badly afflicted term.
If you would ask me which is better to have in a chronic situation, a wavy fever or a much more steady with small ups and downs, I would say by experience that the wavy fever is better. I had a niece who after being struck by a triple vaccine in her first trimester of her life, began to have once a month almost, bouts of fever lasting for only one day and without any other characteristic symptom, except of nervous ones. When she was 3-4 years old suffered from bronchitis which was helped by homeopathy. Sometimes, growing up, she had fever lasting for one month. At the age of 15 she stopped having such fevers when she was treated with some micro-nutrients, vitamin C, lysine, green tea polyphenols (Dr Rath's products) and her general health is much better now.

cdm
August 21st, 2009, 11:30 AM
And I would add it was a great victory of the drug cartel to convince doctors and patients to consider fever as the enemy and as the real sickness. It is known by the true homeopaths that a strong organism will continue the fever after being struck by a acetaminophen or other similar devilish drug. A less strong organism may have not the force after the striking to re iterate the attack, and so it is "convinced" to stop the fight and the cleaning of the organism, unless the threat is severe.

HansSelyeWasCorrect
August 22nd, 2009, 06:23 AM
One possibility that deserves consideration involves what "antibiotics" and similar medications do. There are more non-human than human cells in a person's body, and if you go on a witch hunt, trying to destroy the horrible "HIV," then you are going to change your body's environment for these other organisms. Some will be killed off, but you can't kill them all off. Something will survive there, because there is nourishment available. And guess what can survive best in this kind of harsh environment? Fungi. The doctors who treated early "AIDS" cases in SF understood this. The T cell count may very well be a good marker for this, but the underlying mechanisms should be what scientists seek. Fortunately, there's more than enough enough evidence now to get a very good sense of what those mechanisms are, even without the kind of on-point, controlled experiments that would settle the matter.

whereistheproof
August 22nd, 2009, 05:28 PM
But why do all those with HIV have such a drastically compromised immune system that makes them develop the symptoms of HIV as we know them. You sort of think that there must be something there, even if the scientists haven't quite got it right on what it is :(

can you tell me where you found the data that supports your claim that all HIV+ eventually develop symptoms? there are millions out there that are HIV+ and haven't been ill at all. Which is why they haven't yet been tested. And the majority of those that get tested are well and healthy too. Without meds. I am one of them.

22 years without meds at all - alive and well and healthy as can be. Just today i cycled some 40 km and last week my rowing team broke a new local record. so please, can you back up your claim with data that all HIV+ people get sick with AIDS? I'd like to know. Cause I have been looking for that data a long time and can't find it. Thanks.

cbwheel
August 23rd, 2009, 02:21 AM
Whereistheproof-
I would agree that only SOME people with HIV eventually get sick. Many, like yourself do not and probably will not. However, we shouldnt ignore those medication free people who do get very sick with pneumocystis, kaposi sarcoma and whole host of other opportunistic infections that only seem to occur in HIV positive people and virtually no one else in the United States population with very very rare anecdotal exceptions. Something is making these people terribly sick with horrible immune dysfunction. I have serious doubts that its HIV, but that seems to be the only factor they have in common. We need to find the answer to a very simple question, if its not HIV, what is causing this horrible immune dysfunction in medication free people. However, no one here seems at all interested in exploring that issue. The people here are so consumed and obsessed with saying HIV is not the cause, that they take no time to explore what IS OR COULD BE THE CAUSE.

G Man
August 23rd, 2009, 02:33 AM
Whereistheproof-
I would agree that only SOME people with HIV eventually get sick. Many, like yourself do not and probably will not. However, we shouldnt ignore those medication free people who do get very sick with pneumocystis, kaposi sarcoma and whole host of other opportunistic infections that only seem to occur in HIV positive people and virtually no one else in the United States population with very very rare anecdotal exceptions. Something is making these people terribly sick with horrible immune dysfunction. I have serious doubts that its HIV, but that seems to be the only factor they have in common. We need to find the answer to a very simple question, if its not HIV, what is causing this horrible immune dysfunction in medication free people. However, no one here seems at all interested in exploring that issue. The people here are so consumed and obsessed with saying HIV is not the cause, that they take no time to explore what IS OR COULD BE THE CAUSE.

One word: COFACTORS

cbwheel
August 23rd, 2009, 02:45 AM
One word: COFACTORS

What does that mean? I want to know what all of these people are DOING lifestyle wise or specifically being exposed to. I have lost many gay friends who were HIV positive. With some of them I can totally understand why. However, I have also known two straight women, normal non-drug abusing women who died. None of these people tooks meds. My point is, putting HIV aside, what are the "cofactors" they could possible have in common?

HansSelyeWasCorrect
August 23rd, 2009, 02:54 AM
I want to know too, cbwheel. Unfortunately, the medical establishment slaps an "HIV/AIDS" label on certain people, then just follows textbook protocol. If you want to get a glimpse into the actual facts, instead of the fantastic vision called " HIV/AIDS," get a copy of "When AIDS Began." Some of these early "AIDS patients" were given all kinds of very nasty "medical treatments" after they went to their doctors complaining of rather normal kinds of problems. I was quite surprised when I read this material, and I already knew that some of these things were done !

G Man
August 23rd, 2009, 03:44 AM
One word: COFACTORS

What does that mean? I want to know what all of these people are DOING lifestyle wise or specifically being exposed to. I have lost many gay friends who were HIV positive. With some of them I can totally understand why. However, I have also known two straight women, normal non-drug abusing women who died. None of these people tooks meds. My point is, putting HIV aside, what are the "cofactors" they could possible have in common?

It works both ways, there are many, many people who are 'HIV positive' and never get ill and don't die. That's why we're all here, because that doesn't jive with what the orthodoxy tells us what's supposed to happen to you when you get HIV.

This needs to be studied, but instead of doing that it's easier to just say HIV was the culprit. And it's in the best interest of the pharmaceutical industry to have as many people on life long meds as possible. We won't begin to find real answers until mainstream science stops using HIV as a catch-all every time someone gets ill or dies from something listed under the AIDS heading.

They have PROClAIMED there is a list of diseases that fall under the heading of AIDS. Nature hasn't proclaimed this, god hasn't proclaimed this....THEY HAVE. Then when someone dies of any one of these diseases, it is labeled as AIDS with HIV being responsible, open and shut case. My belief it that it's a whole lot more complicated than that, but at the present time there is no real incentive or mainstream outcry for them to look for anything else. As you might be aware, many who have tried are ostrasized and/or have their funding cut off.

I think that's what we're trying to do here is open up a dialog, so that maybe one day soon better studies can be done which don't assume before they start the study that HIV alone is responsible for these illnesses and deaths.

lightanddarkbalance
August 23rd, 2009, 04:41 AM
"I would agree that only SOME people with HIV eventually get sick. Many, like yourself do not and probably will not. However, we shouldnt ignore those medication free people who do get very sick with pneumocystis, kaposi sarcoma and whole host of other opportunistic infections that only seem to occur in HIV positive people and virtually no one else in the United States population with very very rare anecdotal exceptions. Something is making these people terribly sick with horrible immune dysfunction. I have serious doubts that its HIV, but that seems to be the only factor they have in common. We need to find the answer to a very simple question, if its not HIV, what is causing this horrible immune dysfunction in medication free people. However, no one here seems at all interested in exploring that issue. The people here are so consumed and obsessed with saying HIV is not the cause, that they take no time to explore what IS OR COULD BE THE CAUSE"

*WHAT IS CAUSING THE HORRIBLE IMMUNE DYSFUNCTION IN MEDICATION FREE PEOPLE IS THE MISREPRESNTATION THAT THEY WERE MEDICATION FREE, AND OR, NOT HAVING PRIOR KNOWN CONDITIONS* These baseless rumors when examined in a case by case basis ALL fall apart. There are always known prior health issues and nearly a 100% significant medication usage.

The only cause of these cases of allegeded non medication using very sick people with no known prior conditions reported by is cb is cb. The lack of accurate objective examination which enables this misrepresentation must be understood as being sloopy irresponsible perception.

HansSelyeWasCorrect
August 23rd, 2009, 04:43 AM
G Man made a great point in the post above, whether he realizes it or not. That is, never, ever underestimate the incredible power of laziness/inertia, especially among "experts."

cbwheel
August 23rd, 2009, 05:58 AM
G man-
Great post.
I agree, there has always been a need for further exploration of all of these issues, but without funding it will never happen. Look at poor Duesberg and what they did to him. I dont know, I guess Im just fed up. The mainstream provides nothing of value and the dissidents simply refuse to answer basic questions about why people got sick. Alot of chatter about co-factors and prior conditions but very little to prove those things as the causes at least prior to meds being introduced in 1987. Alot of speculation and theory, but not much else. But again, without funding and study, how could you prove cofactors and prior conditions as causes anyway?

HansSelyeWasCorrect
August 23rd, 2009, 06:43 AM
cbwheel:

Have you read "When AIDS Began?" You can read some very interesting passages for free at google books. Before I read it, I too assumed that there was a real "AIDS" phenomenon before high-dose AZT, but now I have changed my mind, though I still think dietary changes in society probably cost more lives than would have been the case otherwise. So, let me ask you a question: what do you think would happen to you if you lived a very unhealthy lifestyle, including IV drug use, popper use, homelessness, etc., then went to a free clinic or inner city ER and were treated with several blood transfusions and biopsies as well as high-doses of powerful antibiotics/antifungals and cortiosteriods (some also had previous serious medical conditions, which included getting chemotherapy). At least one of these "AIDS patients" stopped eating! Overall, these accounts reveal a recipe for a real "AIDS"-like condition that is about as efficient as I can imagine (not being done on purpose). And they didn't all die the same way, didn't all have KS, etc.

lightanddarkbalance
August 23rd, 2009, 02:53 PM
CB - The right answer given to your baseless observations is that there are no cases of anyone that every got seriously ill without known prior conditions and a near 100% drug usage. No cases - Zero - No one. The reason they exist, according to you, is your lack of proper examination. The problem is you.

Despite you being given the answer to the myth your promoting you persist in making broad sweeping generalizations which beg the point - the point being your making judgement based on what actual evidence.

"I agree, there has always been a need for further exploration of all of these issues, but without funding it will never happen. Look at poor Duesberg and what they did to him. I dont know, I guess Im just fed up. The mainstream provides nothing of value and the dissidents simply refuse to answer basic questions about why people got sick. Alot of chatter about co-factors and prior conditions but very little to prove those things as the causes at least prior to meds being introduced in 1987. Alot of speculation and theory, but not much else. But again, without funding and study, how could you prove cofactors and prior conditions as causes anyway"

CB - you claim to know of people with horrible immune conditions and no meds - you claim to know of 2 girls who got sick didn't take meds and died. The question now is the claims and the reporter. The is no funding needed to examine your mind. The very problems you condemn dissidents for - "little proof, chatter, refusing to answer basic questions about why people got sick, speculaton and theory " exists only in your mind. You are doing the very things that you incorrectly attribute to dissidents.

Here's the proof that the problem is your irresponsible mythology.

Provide actual details. What are you talking about. Give the evidence of the cases by providing detailed facts. This is the standard of proof . How do you know what you know. Your responses will demonstrate one of 2 things. Either you have a real carefully scruntinized basis for you observations or you don't.

cbwheel
August 23rd, 2009, 06:03 PM
Hans-
My feeling is that HIV does not cause AIDS. The primary factor that decided it for me was hearing about and actually seeing Kaposi Sarcoma cases in gay men who are HIV negative. It continues to this day in large numbers, but yet is often one of the most under-reported aspects of this whole affair.

Thanks for the info. I will try to pick up the book and read it. Youve been here for years, just like myself and I always appreciate and trust your commentary. My only hope is that the book will reach beyond anecdotal evidence of just a few cases and provide an explanation for the at least 10,000 cases (could be more, could be less) in the pre-azt era. These are the cases that primarily concern me at this time. In all the years Ive studied this issue, Ive never found one solid dissident concensus on what killed those people. This is what Im searching for.

What puzzles me is that all of the preconditions existed before 1981, but didnt cause a wave of deaths so suddenly and all at one time. The sixties was notorious for drug abuse, stds, homelessness and running around, yet they didnt have large ammounts of people dying of immune system failure. Forget about the 1970s, the gay community went wild, poppers and lots of Stds', yet same thing nobody died from these things.

jee
August 23rd, 2009, 07:15 PM
cbwheel,

I think you and I are quite on the same page and are asking some very profound and relevant questions and not finding answers. I am not blaming the forum or dissidents for not providing accurate answers that are scientific, I just believe that nobody has the answers as of today, but things could change in the future.

Lightanddarkbalance is partially correct that there is some history of illness or drugs (non-recreational) involved, but I think what's missing in his theory is the fact that even if one took antibiotics for pneumonia (a serious illness) let's say, one didn't take antibiotics as a leisure activity, but one got to the point of being sick over a short (or long) period of time and was forced to take the drug. And then when this person's CD4 was measured, it was found to be low.

I bet there are thousands and thousands of positive people who have never touched drugs, do not smoke, drink, eat healthy, yet are diagnosed and upon monitoring their CD4s, there is a steady decline in their counts, if that's not a 21st century biggest puzzle, what is.

There is some real good dissident literature out there including some very smart people like Maniotis, Culshaw, etc. but why we can't figure out the reason for CD4 depletion and how we can stop it, is an enigma that's playing into the hands of the establishment.

HansSelyeWasCorrect
August 23rd, 2009, 07:31 PM
As I've said before, you can't tell other people to accept your assumptions (which are clearly lacking in supportive evidence) and then complain when they don't respond to your questions that require a belief in those assumptions.

"When AIDS" Began" addresses the issue of exactly what kind of evidence is available on the early cases. If it is not all that great, who's fault is that? One way to think about it is this: the "orthodoxy" argues that the world is flat and attacks "dissidents," who point out all the evidence to the contrary. The orthodox folks have jets at their disposal but refuse to take a trip around the world, claiming that it would be a waste of time and money, and that everything has been "proven." Other than citing the evidence and make a strong argument, what else is there to do? My argument about early "AIDS" is that it is an unhealthy lifestyle combined with "death by doctor." Tell me how am I supposed to go about demonstrating that? Are you volunteering?

cdm
August 23rd, 2009, 08:40 PM
Hans-
The sixties was notorious for drug abuse, stds, homelessness and running around, yet they didnt have large ammounts of people dying of immune system failure. Forget about the 1970s, the gay community went wild, poppers and lots of Stds', yet same thing nobody died from these things.

You are not right. You know the names from the art industry: Jim Morrison, Janis Jopplin, a member of Rolling Stones and another of early Beatles - do not recall their names- Elvis, Jimmie Hendrix. Why should we not call it AIDS? They just called it death from drugs. Is it sure? Couldn't they just have deteriorated their immune system? For Jim Morrison we know that he died of pneumonia.

HansSelyeWasCorrect
August 23rd, 2009, 09:03 PM
If people are going to say things like, "I knew a lot of people who did all kinds of drugs and they are still alive," then there is no reason for this site's existence. The main point here is that the scientific evidence does not support "HIV/AIDS." It doesn't have to support any other notion. Academically, it's considered essential that scholars can and should criticize claims that are weak. It's only recently that "modern medicine" has become more of a cult than an academic discipline. However, if anyone takes the time to attempt to figure things out, such as Michelle Cochrane did, then it's worth reading. Otherwise, it's simply not credible unless you have a mechanism that you can relate it to, such as what happened to me due to low or no stomach acid production, and again, that's just something to think about in a much larger context. But because people are not tested for stomach acid when they have problems that might be caused by it, we simply can't say anything except that we'd like to see such tests done (though in this case you can essentially test yourself, without needing a doctor).

Biology is about thresholds, and everyone's threshold for this or that are at least slightly different. Moreover, in science generally, you have to isolate all possibly causative factors, which is usually impossible to do with people, because you can't observe every thing they do all the time. However, considering what was done to the early "AIDS patients" (and how much hysteria "experts" were generating about a massive outbreak of "VD" that would likely occur due to gay sex), I'm surprised more didn't die of the "treatments" and "medicines" doctors were prescribing. Now that "HIV/AIDS" is established, doctors don't do those things any longer, so you can't compare then to now. What those early days teach us, more than anything else (medically-speaking) is how "modern medicine" failed, because they not only didn't "cure" disease, but instead caused death (or sped up the process).

This is not complicated: If KS and PCP were the key indicators of "AIDS" in those days (as "experts" claimed), and if we know that KS is no longer common and therefore not worth discussing in this context (the numbers don't lie here, as they are overwhelming), then it all comes down to PCP. And some of these doctors said that their "medicines" could've caused the PCP, leaving aside so many other factors, such as some receiving chemotherapy, multiple blood transfusions, just not eating, etc. So, where is the "AIDS?" How many died before high-dose AZT and exactly what did they die from (including what the doctors did)? Now people look back to deaths classified, sometimes retrospectively, as "AIDS," but if we go back and look at all the deaths of those under say 45 years old and not from something like a car accident, what will we find? Unfortunately, I don't think the data is available, but if anyone has a suggestion, please chime in here. There was an account of what the author called "urban death zones," and he or she noted that this has been true for much of history (as long as there have been cities), and it's much more likely that the early "AIDS" cases were just a recent example of this, along with the nasty "medicine" and "treatments" that "modern medicine" provided.

G Man
August 23rd, 2009, 09:29 PM
WOW, this is a great thread. I just need to reiterate that until they start studying cofactors and non-ARV survivors we can have this conversation until the cows come home but nothing will change.

AIDS is now a 10 BILLION dollar a year enterprise. There are peeps in high places who don't want that messed with.

cbwheel
August 23rd, 2009, 11:30 PM
JEE SAID:
"I bet there are thousands and thousands of positive people who have never touched drugs, do not smoke, drink, eat healthy, yet are diagnosed and upon monitoring their CD4s, there is a steady decline in their counts, if that's not a 21st century biggest puzzle, what is.
There is some real good dissident literature out there including some very smart people like Maniotis, Culshaw, etc. but why we can't figure out the reason for CD4 depletion and how we can stop it, is an enigma that's playing into the hands of the establishment."

Thank you Jee for expressing exactly how I feel.

lightanddarkbalance
August 24th, 2009, 12:04 AM
Moderator - where is the common questions page ? - i cant access it. On the old site it was easy to find.

The lack of knowledge exhibited by many posters on ame is sadly very impressive. What is the point of having an ame chat room if the abc's of aids reality education is not part of the board ? The igorance is so complete that in this one tread we find people not knowing the devastating history of pre azt drug and rx nuking of people. They even believe that t cells are an indication of immune health.

Help !! - there needs to be a basic educational section which covers all the core topics.

HansSelyeWasCorrect
August 24th, 2009, 02:16 AM
To follow up on the above post, let me add that some of us presented the evidence against the usual "HIV/AIDS" claims and there isn't much else to do. If some people want to ignore that evidence or don't understand it (and won't take some time to try to understand it) then we are at an "agree to disagree" point, and there's no place to go from here.

cbwheel
August 24th, 2009, 02:28 AM
Unfortunately, Im sad to say, what Ive seen here, is what I see from the HIV believers, alot of obfiscation, excuses and failure to answer the most basic of questions. Yes, we all know HIV does not cause AIDS, how many times are you going to continue to repeat the same mantra? I keep telling you, I believe that and I accept that fact. I repeat, I know that already!! I have known it for ten years now.

What I DO want to know is simple, what caused 10,000 gay male deaths prior to the introduction of AZT in 1987 to the general public. Period. Thats what I want to know. Instead of getting that answer, Ive been called foul names, attacked and have been berated for absolutely no reason. You call that educating people? Its as bad as what the believers do. Can someone please answer the question and stop giving me all this bullshit doubletalk and anecdotal stories from some book. Point me toward some evidence, Im willing to read whatever I have to read.

HansSelyeWasCorrect
August 24th, 2009, 03:17 AM
First of all, if someone has done something inappropriate, I would support you if you reported it to a moderator. However, I think you should specify exactly what you consider unacceptable. I haven't read every world in this thread, but I don't remember any such instance. Secondly, no matter what you think the numbers are, if what was done to those people (and how they lived before going to doctors) is anything like what is documented in "When AIDS Began," there is no mystery here at all. Lastly, here is a recent abstract that is relevant to this point:

Blood. 2008 Jul 15;112(2):287-94. Epub 2008 May 2.

Idiopathic CD4+ lymphocytopenia: natural history and prognostic factors.

Idiopathic CD4(+) lymphocytopenia (ICL) is a rare non-HIV-related syndrome with unclear natural history and prognosis. This prospective natural history cohort study describes the clinical course, CD4 T lymphocyte kinetics, outcome, and prognostic factors of ICL. Thirty-nine patients (17 men, 22 women) 25 to 85 years old with ICL were evaluated between 1992 and 2006, and 36 were followed for a median of 49.5 months. Cryptococcal and nontuberculous mycobacterial infections were the major presenting opportunistic infections. Seven patients presented with no infection. In 32, CD4 T-cell counts remained less than 300/mm(3) throughout the study period and in 7 normalized after an average of 31 months. Overall, 15 (41.6%) developed an opportunistic infection in follow-up, 5 (13.8%) of which were "AIDS-defining clinical conditions," and 4 (11.1%) developed autoimmune diseases. Seven patients died, 4 from ICL-related opportunistic infections, within 42 months after diagnosis. Immunologic analyses revealed increased activation and turnover in CD4 but not CD8 T lymphocytes. CD8 T lymphocytopenia (< 180/mm(3)) and the degree of CD4 T cell activation (measured by HLA-DR expression) at presentation were associated with adverse outcome (opportunistic infection-related death; P = .003 and .02, respectively).

And another study found that it was CD8+ T cell activation that seemed to be responsible for CD4+ T cell decline: "CONCLUSIONS: Higher levels of CD8+ T-cell activation are associated with faster rates of CD4+ T-cell decline in patients with drug-resistant viremia. This provides further evidence of the independent role of CD8+ T-cell activation in predicting disease course and prompts consideration of larger scale testing of whether measurement of T-cell activation is useful in deciding when to switch antiretroviral drugs among patients with drug-resistant viremia."

Source: Program Abstr Conf Retrovir Oppor Infect 11th 2004 San Franc Calif. 2004 Feb 8-11; 11: abstract no. 653.

And here's another interesting point: "In controllers, higher CD4(+) and CD8(+) T cell activation was associated with lower CD4(+) cell count... CONCLUSION: HIV controllers have abnormally high T cell activation levels, which may contribute to progressive CD4(+) T cell loss even without measurable viremia."

Source: J Infect Dis. 2008 Jan 1;197(1):126-33.

cbwheel
August 24th, 2009, 03:30 AM
Hans-
Im not going to mention his name, but there is an incredibly rude and arrogant person here who believes that berating and insulting another human being is more important than educating. Its not you, though. So, your saying that the thousands that died had ICL? You continue to recommend When Aids Began, but Im not going to read it if it only provides a few cases. A few cases can not be applied to generalize about 10,000 people. Every estimate Ive heard has the pre-azt death toll in the 10,000 to 15,000 range. Almost all of them gay men.

resistanceisfruitful
August 24th, 2009, 03:37 AM
lightanddarkbalance:

Good question. I've asked the same question of the admins. My powers do not extend to modifying that part of the site. I will forward this to the admins and hope we can get that important front end information and FAQs back in operation so newbies and others can be referred to it.


Moderator - where is the common questions page ? - i cant access it. On the old site it was easy to find.

HansSelyeWasCorrect
August 24th, 2009, 04:12 AM
"A few cases." How many do you need, exactly? And if you want to provide the other 9,000+ cases, go ahead and I'll look them over, but I see no reason to doubt the doctors who said that the antibiotics may have caused the PCP (this is consistent with what I've read from other sources). I know nobody who has been treated the way these guys were, including many relatives who lived to advanced ages. In any case, as I told you before, you can read through some of the cases for free using google books.

Now let's take a look at a report I posted previously:

"T helper cells are specific T cells that have receptors that recognize and bind to fragments (known as antigens) of the invaders that already have been displayed on the surface of other immune system cells. (These T helper cells are also called CD4 T cells since they express CD4 molecules.) Once the antigen has been bound, these T helper cells become activated, and they morph into "effector" cells which then boost an immune response by secreting "cytokine" molecules such as interleukins and interferons."

Source: http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/life_sciences/report-49950.html

One reasonable explanation is that the cytokine activity produced at least some of the initial nasty symptoms ("flu-like"), though due to the very unhealthy lifestyles it's impossible to say. Then, as I keep pointing out, the doctors did things that they themselves realized could produce PCP. The other major "AIDS-related disease" was KS, and we all know that there are hardly any KS cases today, which should make everyone question "HIV/AIDS" just on that point alone. Another thing you should know before making such statements about how many died is that just in that one book alone, the author mentions that two infants were retrospectively classified as "AIDS deaths," as was a guy who seemed to be heterosexual, and that was just for what you consider "a small number of cases." Again, you can't ask us to explain a conceptual categorization that we did not create and that many of us contest. You are assuming that about 10,000 gay men died without being treated differently, prior to high-dose AZT, and that hardly anyone else did (we can leave hemophiliacs aside for the moment, to keep things simple, but they certainly were not "normal" and were not treated as others were). If you can document that this is the case, we can move forward, but if not, it is intellectually not credible to keep making this statement.

cbwheel
August 24th, 2009, 04:38 AM
Hans-
What Im asking is, has anyone ever gone through the first few thousand cases of "AIDS" before the discovery of HIV in 1983 and before the introduction of AZT in 1987. I dont know if that would be possible due to privacy issues, but has anyone ever attempted to look at all of their medical histories? This could provide us with so much valuable information. This is what I want to know. Has ANYONE ever taken a serious look at thousands of cases to determine what the heck went on.

I always believed in the multifactorial theory presented by sonnenbend. This always made most sense to me, but who knows if its the truth. As for Kaposi Sarcoma, many studies have suggested its nothing more than KSHV being transmitted through either oral/anal contact or using saliva as an anal lubricant for anal sex. As I have mentioned, every year for the last ten years I have read reports about gay men getting Kaposi Sarcoma yet they are HIV negative with perfectly healthy Tcell counts. Yet, no one seems to care or is interested in changing their behavior. I do know that HIV has virtually nothing to do with Kaposi Sarcoma.

HansSelyeWasCorrect
August 24th, 2009, 05:52 AM
I think it was quite a task for Michelle Cochrane to obtain and examine all the cases she did in her book. I don't know you if can find anyone to do this. I would like to look through the information, but tracking it down would likely be quite an adventure. Again, why don't you read the free passages, because I think she talks about how she obtained what she did? Then come back and post your ideas here.

EDIT (additional information): Here is one "gem" from that book: "...in the late 70s, and in New York amebiasis was a big epidemic in those days... people were actually dying of it... it was rampant on the East Coast... the same thing as [gay bowel disease]... [We] treated it with Flagyl and lots of nasty chemicals..." From pages 29-30.

Note that this episode has not been classified as "HIV/AIDS," there were deaths from it among the same kinds of people who would be said to have died of "HIV/AIDS" several years later, and he admits that they used harsh "medicine," the kind that was probably hardly ever used on other segments of the population.

Also, on page 66 there is the admission that the use of such "medicine" probably caused significant hearing loss in at least one patient (I think there were other cases too). How many times have you heard of someone losing their hearing because their doctors prescribed common medications? There is discussion of the use of "double strength Septra"' as well as "prophylactic"' use of this drug. Is that ever done these days, or is that an element of this "story" that has gone largely unnoticed?

Lastly, what seems to have been really dangerous (as the doctors themselves suggested) were the sulfa-based antibiotics they used. And they used them in high doses and for long periods of time. Take a look at this: http://allergies.about.com/od/medicationallergies/a/sulfa.htm. Note how they talk about a possible side-effect being pneumonia, and there's also this: "Sulfa allergy can also affect various blood cells, resulting in decreased white blood cells, red blood cells, and platelets...", and of course anemia was documented in several of the early cases. In light of all this (and other things I haven't mentioned), I'm quite surprised more people treated this way didn't die, and that's assuming that there is no "HIV !"

moonchild493
August 24th, 2009, 07:53 PM
I can personally attest that yes, they do still prescribe Bactrim prophylactically. They did it to me when I finally broke down and went back to the ID doc about 2 1/2 years ago with a CD4 count of 46. I may have taken a few pills, but if I did I stopped very quickly. Quitting didn't seem to affect me adversely. I doubt they would have prescribed it if my CD4 count had been over 100. Now I'm freaking out because they tried to get me to take Levaquin, which didn't agree with me. Sometimes I wonder if the few days I took it caused the foot and joint problems that appeared several months ago and would not go away. I never realized that antibiotics could be so problematic, but I'll be much more careful in the future. I remember having Flagyl prescribed for me many years ago for trichomonas or something. Gone are the days when I'll blithely take what they tell me to without questioning. Some lessons are hard learned.

HansSelyeWasCorrect
August 24th, 2009, 08:07 PM
I'm wondering if non-"HIV positive" people are treated this way though, except perhaps a person with a raging infection of some kind.

moonchild493
August 24th, 2009, 08:22 PM
Do they prescribe Bactrim in many other cases these days? Oh, wait! My little old lady friend (she's 91) takes what she says is a low dose and has been doing so for about 25 years because when she had her hysterectomy they did something to her bladder that made it necessary for her to catheterize for the rest of her life. She swears she would have constant bladder infections if she didn't take it. Once in a while, when it gets worse than usual, they put her on Cipro, which really scares me since it's in the same class as Levaquin.

I try to mention natural things like D-mannose, which makes the bacteria too slippery to cause damage because they just get washed away, but you probably know how older people are so reluctant to go against the doctors. My father's on about 10 drugs for heart and blood pressure issues, and cholesterol that wasn't that high anyway, and now he has a foot drop/neuropathy thing that his doctor admits is caused by the drugs. You can bet that would send me looking for alternatives pronto, but, nooo....

Sometimes you just can't win.

cbwheel
August 24th, 2009, 10:55 PM
The only drug I can speak about is Flagyl, and yes its is used routinely in the general population. I was in the hopsital after surgery and developed an anaerobic infection in my blood. I took Flagyl for two weeks and it was gone. No side effects to report. Many people take it. I wouldnt recommend taking it on a consistent basis, as it does have a pretty nasty warning label. What drug doesnt these days? Hans- I think youve got little pieces of the puzzle all over the place, what needs to be done is to gather it all up and create one cohesive theory to explain all of the pre-azt deaths in the gay community, but nice work.

HansSelyeWasCorrect
August 25th, 2009, 02:38 AM
cbwheel:

When you make such statements you are doing the same thing the "HIV/AIDS" crowd is doing. I'll explain. They came to the conclusion that there was a distinct phenomenon and then looked for a singular cause. After that, it gets even worse of course, because some of the more powerful ones concluded that it had to be a "virus" and used lab artifacts to come up with a huge "stretch of the imagination." And even then, it took time for this notion, announced at a press conference, to take hold to the point it is at today.

Biology is a real "mess" today because it's so difficult to subject it to the scientific method. Even when this is done, it is sometimes ignored anyway, such as when M.I.T. researchers fed rats a diet with no "essential fatty acids" and found that they are clearly not essential. But when it comes to a situation where you are dealing with a huge number of people, many of whom have similar problems (but definitely not all), how can that be subjected to the scientific method? Also, they didn't all die the same way and some didn't die at all, so what exactly are we trying to determine?

Though it would be unethical and I wouldn't do it, I don't think it would be difficult to reproduce the conditions Michelle Cochrane talks about in her book, and then just wait for people to start to die. That would be a scientific demonstration. Instead, you are asking people like me to conceptualize the world the way you do, and that is not consistent with the scientific method. This involves distinguishing cause and effect by controlling for all possible variables. The "HIV/AIDS" crowd didn't do this, but almost seemed to be gleefully ignoring the scientific method. At this point, it's more a matter of sociology, involving who has certain kinds of power and who does not. I enjoy speaking on this subject, but it's not relevant to this thread, of course.

yangming
August 25th, 2009, 07:54 AM
3 yrs ago a "HIV specialist" suggested me to take bactrim every day to prevent any infection. Of course I run out ,as soon as i could, from her.

HansSelyeWasCorrect
August 25th, 2009, 07:50 PM
I'll mention a couple of cases discussed in the "When AIDS Began" book, mainly because I found the information there to be about as contradictory to "HIV/AIDS" as I could imagine. Case 1009 does not appear to have been an "AIDS" case at all, but due to his supposed gay lifestyle, he was classified as such. He died of hemorrhaging and angiosarcoma; there was no PCP or KS. There was no information gathered about his lifestyle other than "sex with a male," so there's not much more that can be said, but of course this speaks volumes about the power of "HIV/AIDS" to close the minds of "experts."

Case 1008 is from the opposite end of the spectrum, that is, there was a great deal of information gathered (the medical chart was found for him), perhaps better than any other case. This person did IV amphetamines, and then developed symptoms. In 1978, there was a suspected case of gonorrhea. In 1979, there was chest pain after being kicked in the head, after undergoing "chest surgery" a year and a half earlier. Then he had burns to the eyes from cleaning fluid, at which point he was described as 20 years old, though in the 1978 paperwork he was described at 29 years old. A rash on his back was noted and chalked up to a "heat rash."

In the summer of 1980 it was noted in his chart that he had tested positive for syphilis about two years earlier, but presumably remained "untreated" since then. By June 1981, there were several claims about his condition: metastatic lymphoma, enlarged spleen, leukemia, hemorrhage, amyloidosis, and probably calcified gallstones. He complained of dark bumps on his skin, and admitted to IV drug abuse ("speed" and "MDA"). At this time he was described as 22 years old.

He said he was "sickly" from birth, had weight loss issues, pruritus, night sweats, and possible mild dysphagia. He said he had multiple bouts of various "VDs." He had been smoking cigarettes for at least seven years, one pack a day, and he used other "recreational" drugs, including "snorting amyl nitrite." He was living in bath houses or "on the streets," and engaged in S&M gay sex. He was also described as "Marfanoid." He said he and his lover shared needles when they used illegal drugs, and that he had been "fisted."

He had several biopsies done and was diagnosed with KS, then underwent weekly chemotherapy sessions with vinblastine. From this "treatment," he developed anemia. In spite of this, he was prescribed "aggressive" chemotherapy because the KS didn't respond to the vinblastine. Eventually, he was given three different kinds of chemotherapy, leading to thrombocytopenia (and his WBC count and hematocrit levels dropped). This is when he began receiving blood transfusions, and developed other symptoms such as shortness of breath. Nevertheless, he continued to spend most of his money on illegal/recreational drugs.

It was noted that he was depressed and smoking 3-4 packs of cigarettes a day at this point. He was in and out of hospitals. He was negative for CMV and had a lung biopsy done, revealing KS but no PCP. Less than 24 hours he was dead, though it's not stated exactly what happened. He was never counseled about his smoking or drug use, and Cochrane states that the "authorities" were more interested in his lover, who was never recorded as an "AIDS" case. My training in evidence analysis leads me to conclude that this case demonstrates, by itself, that the "HIV" notion is highly unlikely. Moreover, on page 103, the author makes the point that SF gay males donated 5 to 9% of the blood at one major blood collection center alone, before any test to screen for "HIV." Thus, there should've been many "AIDS cases" among heterosexuals who were not hemophiliacs or IV drug users, but this did not occur.

Questions
September 6th, 2009, 09:03 PM
Hi all,

I've got to say that I find the oral thrush thing extremely confusing. I'm told it's meant to be a late-stage HIV symptom when the immune system is really battered, but then a lot of people "without" HIV get it (and surely their immune systems aren't as down and out as those belonging to people "with" HIV?). I've also heard mixed reports while trawling the internet worrying about whether I should worry about the virus - most say it is a late symptom of fullblown AIDS, but others have said that oral candida was their first symptom...surely this is some sort of blow in favour of the dissidents?

HansSelyeWasCorrect
September 6th, 2009, 10:03 PM
Questions: You can think of "HIV/AIDS" as "the 400 blows" because everything about it makes no sense. Every claim made is at odds with what is known about "disease" or their own numbers/statistics, or as you point out, is just logically impossible.

Questions
September 7th, 2009, 09:51 PM
Questions: You can think of "HIV/AIDS" as "the 400 blows" because everything about it makes no sense. Every claim made is at odds with what is known about "disease" or their own numbers/statistics, or as you point out, is just logically impossible.

Yeah, I am getting that impression. When just trawling basic HIV info websites, one finds so many huge contradictions (one medical forum inundated with people worried by their HIV-like symptoms only to be laughed off by the people who have tested positive, as the HIV-positive guys have never had anything like the symptoms that the mainstream say are pretty standard). Anyway, I'm glad I found this site just because it's made me realise one thing (even if it should be really obvious): I do have a problem with needing to be told that I'm sick. Even if my chances of having HIV are (allegedly) pretty much impossible (only having ever had a minute or so of unprotected, heterosexual sex in my life), I find the idea of a test quite distasteful at the moment, as I don't see any good it could do in healthy person's life.

That being said, I do think that entirely denying that HIV exists is a step too far for me. From what I can tell, it does exist (something does cause only people who have been at risk to test positive), but it is likely harmless. Which must be extremely galling for HIV positive folk who have examined all this - being labelled with a probably pointless disease and having it affect EVERYTHING...well, it's scandalous. Am I right in thinking that there is no "HIV/AIDS-related" affliction that does not exist outside of "HIV/AIDS"? If so, I find it outrageous that "HIV-positive" people are not afforded the same treatment for these problems as any "HIV-negative" person would receive.

G Man
September 7th, 2009, 10:06 PM
Am I right in thinking that there is no "HIV/AIDS-related" affliction that does not exist outside of "HIV/AIDS"? If so, I find it outrageous that "HIV-positive" people are not afforded the same treatment for these problems as any "HIV-negative" person would receive.

Yes, you are right. ALL of the 'AIDS' diseases exist outside of HIV/AIDS, and have existed for thousands if not tens of thousands of years.

Questions
September 7th, 2009, 10:20 PM
Yes, you are right. ALL of the 'AIDS' diseases exist outside of HIV/AIDS, and have existed for thousands if not tens of thousands of years.

Curioser and curioser. Btw, I'm sorry if I keep banging on about how I shouldn't have HIV etc, I guess the real reason I first came on here was to justify to myself that I had nothing to worry about, and I'm still trying to get over that phase I just hope I can get to the point where you guys are and have full conviction in something that deserves conviction - there are so many good, solid arguments supporting this dissident movement, but the daily, in-your-face paranoia can be very hard to overcome.

G Man
September 8th, 2009, 01:10 AM
there are so many good, solid arguments supporting this dissident movement, but the daily, in-your-face paranoia can be very hard to overcome.

You aren't kidding about that. This has been very challenging for me personally. There are times when I doubt what I've learned, but then I go back to those 'solid arguments supporting the dissident movement' and realize I'm doing the right thing by not going to 'HIV specialists' and not supporting the drug cartel. This is about my health, my life. I'm not going to put it in the hands of some unproven theory and get 'treatment' with their proven poisons. No way, no how....

lightanddarkbalance
September 8th, 2009, 01:22 AM
There are better places to go than AME to learn about the Aids Myth. AME is great for discussion but lousy for topical educational information.

Other sites will provide you with the educationally information that is missing here.

| HIV & AIDS - VirusMyth (http://www.virusmyth.com)
hiv does not cause aids at aidsmyth.com (http://www.aidsmyth.com)
HEAL: Health Education AIDS Liaison, Toronto - main page (http://www.healtoronto.com)

They are a few of the good ones. - also check you tube for aids dissident, and aids myth.

Up until Feb this site, Aids Myth Exposed, had a good educational section. For some reason, beyond comprehension it was removed. ??!! - And with it the primary means to expose the aids myth has been lost. People coming to this site are now deprived of an education. It makes no sense.

Hey administrator what are you doing by not doing the educational ?

resistanceisfruitful
September 8th, 2009, 12:48 PM
Thanks for the site feedback, lightanddarkbalance.

On a positive note, the new AME board has lots of features the old one did not have. Moderation has also been nearly eliminated, except for spam and the extremely rare harassment or libelous post.

Unfortunately, as you point out, some of the critical FAQs and information pages didn't get transferred successfully to the new format. It's not really fair or accurate to say they were "removed".

I know the admins are aware of this issue, but do not know what is holding things up. I'm guessing it's not as easy as it looks, and everyone involved are volunteers.

Still, the wheel won't get greased unless it squeaks, so again... thanks for reminding us of the work that still needs to be done.

Virtue or not, sometimes Patience sucks...


http://images.travelpod.com/users/lightweight/canada_tour_07.1187828160.patience-is-a-virtue.jpg





Up until Feb this site, Aids Myth Exposed, had a good educational section. For some reason, beyond comprehension it was removed. ??!! - And with it the primary means to expose the aids myth has been lost. People coming to this site are now deprived of an education. It makes no sense.

Hey administrator what are you doing by not doing the educational ?

Questions
September 8th, 2009, 04:54 PM
You aren't kidding about that. This has been very challenging for me personally. There are times when I doubt what I've learned, but then I go back to those 'solid arguments supporting the dissident movement' and realize I'm doing the right thing by not going to 'HIV specialists' and not supporting the drug cartel. This is about my health, my life. I'm not going to put it in the hands of some unproven theory and get 'treatment' with their proven poisons. No way, no how....


It's people like you who add a lot of weight to the dissident movement. For someone like me who hasn't tested (maybe is scared of testing), denying HIV/AIDS is really just a standpoint, and possibly a periodic crutch. But for someone who has been labelled as HIV-positive to deny treatment, when such treatment is supposed to save one from dying, well it makes even the most mainstream of thinkers like me think twice...at least, it should.

moonchild493
September 8th, 2009, 06:45 PM
I think there is a big difference between those who have merely been tested positive (as debilitating as that can be) and those who ended up diagnosed by something like ending up in the hospital unable to breathe and then being tested "just to rule it out". I have long had difficulty understanding those, especially these days, when much of the hysteria has subsided, who are willing to complacently live on drugs that are likely ticking time bombs. They are so scared of dying if they get off the drugs that they won't even consider it. I am now off the drugs for the second time, but I must admit that they did turn me around amazingly fast, and I don't know if I'd be here today if I hadn't gone back on them temporarily. I simply can't wrap my head around trying to live on them indefinitely, and I can't rule out the possibility that they may have done me some permanent damage.

I guess I'm trying to say don't judge too harshly those that seemed to have no other options at the time -- those who tried all the natural options to no avail and finally succumbed to some orthodox treatment. I can't tell you why the drugs worked for me. My best guess is that I have some sort of autoimmune problem and they suppressed my immune system enough to help. I just hope I continue to be well and am able to maintain health through natural means.

Linda

jee
September 11th, 2009, 05:44 AM
Linda,

Not to sound the eternal pessimist but isn't it possible that there are indeed conditions that just CANNOT be resolved? Like someone's death, you can come to terms with it, but you cannot revive them. I think hiv diagnosis is similar, but more importantly I think whatever health condition prompted it cannot be easily fixed, in my case, I think never fixed.

If it's hiv that's caused a complete destruction of my health at every level, then hiv meds have failed me completely too. What would you call that? Higher will? People get sick, take medicine and move on, I get sick, the medicines don't work or making me sicker.

I bet I must have owed tens of thousands of dollars from many alternative health practitioners in a previous life who I have seen over the years. Not only most give different diagnosis of what they think is my problem, some do know about my status, some don't, but nobody is able to fix my problem or even make it manageable. What an epiphany.

At some level, I think hiv is forcing me for the final outcome mentally, but at another level, I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet. That serious candida which is incurable (in my case anyway) whether caused by hiv or on it's own wreak such havoc is again inexplicable. While curezone is filled with goons who have serious candida but are making progress, all on their own, without doing stuff like UV light therapy, Vit C infusions, accupuncture, etc etc.

God also looked at hiv and wondered "what the hell is that shit"? If it sounds like I'm starting to lose my mind, I think I really am.

whereistheproof
September 11th, 2009, 07:44 AM
is it that hard to accept that in addition to being hiv+ people can be sick for other reasons?

there are quite a few people out there that have candida without HIV. or die from pneumonia without HIV. or die from the common cold - without HIV.

moonchild493
September 11th, 2009, 04:26 PM
jee,


I really do sympathize with you and all your problems. I don't know what to tell you. If it is true that you are not addressing your diet properly,you will likely continue with the candida, especially if you are indeed taking antibiotics. Of course there are things that people don't recover from. It happens all the time.
Believing that this is the case in your situation is not helping you recover. Do some qigong or meditation and see if it helps. Don't discount the power of the mind and emotions. I still believe that extreme stress caused or at least exacerbated my situation. I don't know your financial situation, but it might be helpful to consult a counselor. It's something I'm just about to do myself, and something Matt recommends as crucial. He is a great believer in the mind/body connection.

Try not to despair. I believe you can make your life worth living. Don't dismiss these things I suggrest -- they could be helpful if you give them a real chance.

Linda

lightanddarkbalance
September 11th, 2009, 07:10 PM
To understand more about what is missing in Jee's story , repeated in numerous posts on different threads ( see below for example ) which has everything to to with the health destroying effects, and the denial of drug usage, see my my post on the tread -What to do with my bottle of Atripa - post # 22-

Jee, quote -
"Not to sound the eternal pessimist but isn't it possible that there are indeed conditions that just CANNOT be resolved? Like someone's death, you can come to terms with it, but you cannot revive them. I think hiv diagnosis is similar, but more importantly I think whatever health condition prompted it cannot be easily fixed, in my case, I think never fixed.

If it's hiv that's caused a complete destruction of my health at every level, then hiv meds have failed me completely too. What would you call that? Higher will? People get sick, take medicine and move on, I get sick, the medicines don't work or making me sicker.

I bet I must have owed tens of thousands of dollars from many alternative health practitioners in a previous life who I have seen over the years. Not only most give different diagnosis of what they think is my problem, some do know about my status, some don't, but nobody is able to fix my problem or even make it manageable. What an epiphany.

At some level, I think hiv is forcing me for the final outcome mentally, but at another level, I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet. That serious candida which is incurable (in my case anyway) whether caused by hiv or on it's own wreak such havoc is again inexplicable. While curezone is filled with goons who have serious candida but are making progress, all on their own, without doing stuff like UV light therapy, Vit C infusions, accupuncture, etc etc.

God also looked at hiv and wondered "what the hell is that shit"? If it sounds like I'm starting to lose my mind, I think I really am."

HansSelyeWasCorrect
September 11th, 2009, 07:42 PM
One place you can go if you have all kinds of symptoms that your doctor doesn't understand (or thinks are due to "HIV infection") is:

CFS (http://www.cfs-healing.info/index.html)

If you read the "Osler's Web" book you will see that there was a kind of "epidemic" of various symptoms starting no later than the late 1970s. The markers they looked at, including CD4 cells, were "all over the map." If nothing else, I think the late twentieth and at least early twenty-first centuries will be known as the age of "marker madness" in the history of "medicine."

moonchild493
September 14th, 2009, 01:43 AM
I find the Principles of Healing in the link very interesting, stressing things like daily meditation, tai chi and qigong (chi kung), as well as mild exercise and avoidance of stress. I believe there is much to be said for such approaches, and they are very similar to the principles of anthroposophic medicine. We need to take a more holistic and comprehensive view of health.

G Man
September 14th, 2009, 04:07 AM
Dr. Andrew Weil was on Larry King the other night. I thought he nailed it when he said our current healthcare system is for the most part an 'after the fact' disease treating system, not a preventative and overall health care system. We need a great shift from treating symptoms with drugs to living healthy and using low tech means of treatment instead of pharmaceuticals whenever possible.

BamainAtlanta
September 14th, 2009, 05:04 AM
Dear Gladalive,

Im late to this thread. Would you please give us an update? I would like to know more about your history before coming to any conclusions. But if you have a fungal imbalance, large dosages of good probiotics couldn't hurt. Also, you can take grapefruit seed extract. If you are gay, and have had a habit of douching, you may have developed a yeast imbalance. You also could have been exposed to someone else's candida and it colonized in you. Douching is not healthy. It alters the balance of good and bad flora. Hope this helps.

moonchild493
September 14th, 2009, 09:20 PM
Bama,

Gladalive is a woman. I emailed her personally to see how much we had in common, but I have not received a reply. I thought perhaps we could have a meaningful conversation, but I guess not.

Linda

Kewlaid
September 6th, 2010, 01:54 AM
gladalive - Try not to let the records haunt you. Let me share with u an experience of mine:

There was once I was going on a trip to China, and while on the plane, the stewardess got us to fill in this "Arrival Form" that included health declaration with qns such as "are you HIV/AIDS positive?". (can anyone verify if the govt actually does this?) and use it as evidence against me.

.

I'm a year late in reading this thread.

China asked questions like that at one time (within the last 10 years... I can't remember what was on the questionnaire the last time I visited. I'm trying to think if Japan asks this as well or if the question is more ambiguous, thus allowing for arbitrary interpretation by a non-medical official.

I guarantee you that customs/security officials from other countries do not have access to your medical records. You would have to be suspect of of having something really horrible and communicable... like a VISIBLE case of leprosy. Even then... no country has an obligation to grant anyone admittance if they are not a citizen. It is far less paper work and fewer headaches just to detain you and ship you home on the first flight.

A bigger concern for anyone travelling to Asia is whether or not you have a fever. For many years, my experience has been that all Asian ports, either air or sea, require a taking of visitors temperature before granting admittance. The customs officials originally used the kind of unit that was pointed at the forehead. It was a total drag as the line ups took forever... after a 20- 30 hour flight. They now use infrared cameras with monitors which are in full view... they're kind of neat actually.

Standing in line once, I said to the person next to me... I wonder if it would speed things up if I offered a rectal thermometer for the guy to use.... "Welcome to China... move along QUICKLY!!" :eek: Well it got a good laugh from my fellow travellers in the line.

BuffaloBoy
September 11th, 2010, 01:47 AM
A bigger concern for anyone travelling to Asia is whether or not you have a fever. For many years, my experience has been that all Asian ports, either air or sea, require a taking of visitors temperature before granting admittance. The customs officials originally used the kind of unit that was pointed at the forehead. It was a total drag as the line ups took forever... after a 20- 30 hour flight. They now use infrared cameras with monitors which are in full view... they're kind of neat actually.

I've just tried Googling this and can't find anything. Can you supply links about this practice in Asian airports as I would be interested in reading more about it? Thanks.

Kewlaid
September 11th, 2010, 04:28 AM
[B]

I've just tried Googling this and can't find anything. Can you supply links about this practice in Asian airports as I would be interested in reading more about it? Thanks.

I would have to search that info same as you. You might try the travel/medical/visa requirements on the individual country's website.


Usually when I go to various Asian countries, I arrive by sea. Sometimes the officials come onto the ship for temperature taking but usually the ship's medical staff are responsible for recording the temp of passengers and crew and submitting them before the ship is "cleared".

I have never flown into mainland China but have arrived by air in Hong Kong and Japan many times including this year. Japan uses infra red cameras at the the customs wickets. In Hong Kong, the customs official takes the arrivals temperature using an infrared "point n' shoot" type thermometer using the forehead for the reading. I've never seen anyone turned back but you are not allowed past a certain point into the airport unless this is done... this includes changing planes. Mostly they're concerned with the various flu's of the day, TB and Malaria.

jonathan barnett
September 11th, 2010, 12:19 PM
Have you tried searching "thermal body scan", or "thermal body scan asia"? I got quite a few hits, though I'm not sure it's the info you're looking for.

BamainAtlanta
September 12th, 2010, 05:06 AM
My quick two cents: take a very good quality probiotic, eat probiotic foods, and stop douching your anus if you do that. Also, try meditation for stress, yoga, etc. Alpha lipoic acid, glutamine, and undenatured whey are all great for boosting glutathione levels, which are low in HIV poz people. google all this and decide if I am right.

moonchild493
September 12th, 2010, 03:56 PM
May I add just one thing regarding whey protein? I have recently become aware that many (and I don't really know if this includes undenatured ones) are not really very healthy. I have recently begun using products that are made from raw milk from grass-fed cows and are gently processed. Mercola has several, but they are quite expensive. His site has good info, though. Swanson Vitamins carry one that seems comparable but is almost $10.00 cheaper for a similar size container with about 4 more servings. The Swanson does contain some xylitol, and both also have Lo Han as a sweetener.

Swanson also carries Green Vibrance at the best price I've seen, and it includes loads of probiotics and other good stuff along with all the green things.

Linda

positivenegative
September 13th, 2010, 03:15 PM
Consider Kosher Whey. It's prepared in a clean environment under strict guidelines. Nancy's is good.


May I add just one thing regarding whey protein? I have recently become aware that many (and I don't really know if this includes undenatured ones) are not really very healthy.

HansSelyeWasCorrect
September 13th, 2010, 07:36 PM
There was a recent report that might be relevant to this discussion:

QUOTE: Certain food constituents such as the amino acid, glutamate, can help the bacteria neutralise acid, allowing the bacteria to pass through the stomach unscathed. Professor Hill explains the significance of this. "People who consume foods that are contaminated with Listeria and are also high in glutamate, such as soft cheese or meat products, have a higher chance of developing serious infection than someone eating the same quantity of bacteria in a low-glutamate food," he said. "Of course this is further complicated by the fact that a contaminated, low-glutamate food could be eaten in combination with a high-glutamate food such as tomato juice, which could also increase the risk of infection." UNQUOTE.

Source: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100905231235.htm