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jonaskham
March 3rd, 2009, 12:44 AM
Hi everyone
I discovered AME 18 months ago after being diagnosed positive in August 2007 then found Alive & Well, Virusmyth, Heal and lots more. I've spent hundreds of hours reading as much info as I can find and learned a lot.
Quick bio; 45yo gay caucasian male; no illnesses that I can relate to hiv so far and never taken meds. CD4 count varied from 400-200, last test was 310. Viral load all over the place from undetectable to the millions.
On the last visit to my doctor she told me my cd4 cell percentage had fallen from 20% 18 months ago to 12% now and that this was a more accurate measure of the damage hiv had done to me. I didn't really buy it and felt this was scare mongering but the cd4 cell percentage isn't something I've looked into much and don't really understand it; I'd be grateful for any thoughts and comments on what it means.

dissidentsg
March 3rd, 2009, 03:29 AM
The last time i ever went for a check on the counts was in the 2-3mths after i was lablled as "poz"

That was in 2005.

I remember comparing the figures of my 1st and 2nd visits there to which both my VL (by the great thousands) and CD4 (but the tens) went up.

Thank goodness i came across the works of Christine Maggiore, Peter Duesberg and the whole lotta rethinking websites that made me come to understand this entire concept of VL and CD4 counts better.

My VL then was in the tens of thousands, which presumably, today id be dead in a sense

But ive never been on meds. My body endurance now can be said at one of my life's highest. I exercise, meditate, eat good sleep good and think good. I do have some form of itch and skin bumps now here and there but I use TCM to rectify the probs.

Ive also not done any western meds (except ear drops for a recent ear infection due to my own negligence in ear-cleaning) either.

What i'd advise is, get the information u need, read and follow your heart to see what works and sounds best for u. Keep in mind that what may work for one may not necessarily work for another. Yet so often, common sense is all we need to answer many of life's problems.

I wish you all the best in your health and life :)

Brian Carter
March 3rd, 2009, 05:27 AM
What I think DissidentSG is getting at is there's not any one size fits all answer to this dilemma. Lowered CD4 counts (a surrogate lab marker, by the way) could mean something or it could mean nothing. Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos explains in her Gary Null interviews that just lying in the sun for a few hours results in lowered T-cells. It's been said before, that athletes have lowered t-cells in comparison to non-athletes. It's up to the individual to decide how much stock to put into these lab markers.

Alberta Reapprasing AIDS Society says, "....researchers talk about "immune activation", except that nobody can explain how this is connected to the death of CD4 cells. Progression from HIV to AIDS (http://aras.ab.ca/progression.html#progression-cd4)

So, nobody can explain it, but what I'd like to ask jonaskham about is this last visit to good ol' Doc (Infectious Disease Specialist, I presume). Did she also have your VL too? Was this scare mongering coupled that other surrogate marker? Often times it is. This is when I point out to others that 90 per cent of CD 4 depletion is not driven by HIV as presented by Rodriguez et al. Thsi study has been written about extensively. My favorite being this one: http://www.scienceguardian.com/blog/jama-confirms-hiv-load-doesnt-govern-cd4-loss.htm

HansSelyeWasCorrect
March 3rd, 2009, 05:59 AM
Sounds like an issue of stress (what isn't?), so I suggest avoiding all stressors and then taking the test again. As Brian said, don't go out in the sun for a long period of time. Also, don't do strenuous "exercise," eat an antioxidant-rich diet, get enough sleep, lay off alcohol and drugs (legal or illegal), etc. I'd be curious to know if you felt any different when you had a low "viral load" as compared to when it was supposedly very high.

resistanceisfruitful
March 3rd, 2009, 03:22 PM
It will be interesting to see what other responses you get here. I have a similar situation and here's how I look at it.

It's well known that cd4 counts vary wildly, so it makes sense that the % can vary as well. What does that number do over time, not just during one office visit? I don't trust physicians who act with such knee-jerk reactions when they of all people should understand that trends matter.

Secondly, there is no guarantee that ARV will increase cd4 count/% (here's just one report), but there's every reason to think it will be the beginning of toxic effects to the body.

I've been on the cocktail before (6 years ago and counting) I am loathe to ever go back on them, certainly not based only on surrogate markers, and absolutely not because of a single lab result. I hope to never take them again, but I'm not sufficiently evolved in my so-called "denialism" to state emphatically that I won't... yet.

It seems likely to me that high VL and low cd4 tests can be indicative of a health problem, probably a stressed out or overworked immune system, but they need to be interpreted in the context of your overall health and past risks. Dr. Heinrich Kremer's book, The Silent Revolution in Cancer and AIDS Medicine also suggests this is the case, and he does not support the viral causation theory.

What proactive, restorative therapies designed to improve health (as opposed to fighting disease) are you doing?

For myself, I intend to re-start some of the herbal supplements I have stopped due to financial considerations, hoping that I could do without them. Yes, I'd like to see my cd4% higher, but as long as I feel as good as I do, I'm not risking anything toxic.

Good luck, and keeps us informed about how you proceed.




On the last visit to my doctor she told me my cd4 cell percentage had fallen from 20% 18 months ago to 12% now and that this was a more accurate measure of the damage hiv had done to me. I didn't really buy it and felt this was scare mongering but the cd4 cell percentage isn't something I've looked into much and don't really understand it; I'd be grateful for any thoughts and comments on what it means.

whereistheproof
March 3rd, 2009, 08:12 PM
I had my CD4 count and VL measured for almost 10 years, usually in about 6 month intervalls.

the count was always the same - somewhere between 300-600 CD4, VL from lower thousands to just under a hundred thousand.

I stopped all that because no one was really able to explain to me what all that means. I met people with really low CD4 but in good health. And vice versa.

In 2007 as part an annual health inspection in an Asian country which shall remain unnamed, I had to have a full blood count done. All white and red blood cell counts were within normal parameters - whatever that means.

My advice is to live a full and healthy life. Not to take statements from the HIV orthodoxy too serious, especially if they cannot answer your questions. Its your life thats on the line, not theirs, if you follow advise that has, at best, a questionable scientific foundation.

I hope that helps ;)

T.rex
March 3rd, 2009, 08:29 PM
Once, i was chatting with a poz girl, online. She related that she didn't need meds for 16 years being poz, but then she recently went on them. I inquired, why, after all that time, did she suddenly make the decision to go on them? She said she was against meds, but one of her CD4 test was low. The doc suggested testing again in 3 months, and go from there. They were low again in 3 months (like 300 range, not terrible). So she went on them.

The thought occured to me... after her first low test, coupled with the fear of another possible forthcoming low test in 3 months... she undoubtedly was stressing and fearing the entire interim. She knew that another low test would force her on meds. It may have been a self fulfilling prophecy. She felt scared the whole time leading up to the test, which put stress on her body, and it goes with reason to speculate her numbers would go down even further as a result.

The worst i've ever felt was right after my diagnosis. I became sick, lethargic, depressed. If you have stress and fear, its absolutely impossible to be healthy.

My advice for you (if you are going to rely on these tests as a marker) is don't stress. Be happy. Eat healthy. Be optimisitc. If you are scared and stressed, your numbers will be down, and you'll assume the hiv did it, rather than the fear of hiv doing it.

jonaskham
March 3rd, 2009, 10:48 PM
Thanks for all your responses so far; it's much appreciated.
I'm going to give some more information about myself and what's happened to me in recent years which will hopefully answer your questions.

October 2005
After 12 years of theoretically putting myself at risk through ocassional unprotected sex I finally got around to having the Hep B vaccine. In January 2006 I developed Hep B! I went back to the clinic and they told me the vaccine hadn't worked on me. Now I did have unprotected sex a couple of times between having the vaccine and developing Hep B so theoretically I could have caught it through sex but it seems like a hell of a coincidence! Could the vaccine have given me Hep B? Anyway I fought it off after 6 weeks, had my blood checked after 6 months and I was pronounced clear. I thought I got off lightly as a lot of people seem to be laid up for 9 months. When I discovered the dissident information I saw that Hep B and the vaccine can cause a HIV+ result so obviously I'm wondering if that's happened with me.

August 2007
After relentless pressure every time I went to the clinic for a check up I caved in and agreed to take a HIV test which came back positive. Initial CD4 result: 397; VL undetectable.

November 2007
CD4: 405; VL in the millions but the doctor said this was due to me having had a bad cold recently.

December 2007
I caught syphilis. Took Doxycycline antibiotics which seemed to clear it.

February 2008
CD4: 317 VL: 118k
I've read about how syphilis can affect the immune system and attibute the drop in CD4 to this. I also developed a fungal infection on my feet, arms and legs which the doctor gleefully announced could be due to HIV but I think the Doxycycline was more likely responsible. It cleared up anyway.

June 2008
CD4 344; VL 118k

August 2008
I caught Herpes. Having a real bad run of STD's here lol
Took Acyclovir and it cleared up after 5 weeks.

September 2008
CD4 297 VL n/a

December 2008
CD4 212 VL 57k

January 2009
CD4 310 VL n/a

These days I eat pretty healthily; lots of fruit, vegetables, fish, yoghurt. I also take multivitamin tablets, zinc, vit C, garlic and selenium.....must admit I feel quite well. I did eat lots of crap before the Hepatitis. I rarely drink alcohol but do have bad habits; I smoke 15 cigarettes a day, one cannabis joint a night and ocassionally take cocaine....approx half a gram to a gram once a month. Bad I know but that's on the wain and I feel can take it or leave it now. I'd be interested to know what effect cannabis has on the immune system; I've smoked a joint a night for the last 3 years and that started due to stress.
I don't exercise as much as I should although I look in good shape, not fat or anything. All the other tests they do at the clinic, liver, kidneys, cholestoral always come back excellent.
Stress....this is the big one. I've been in a state of constant psychological stress for the last 3 years, initially due to financial problems resulting in bankruptcy then the stress of testing positive, going to the clinic every 3 months and being told I'm going to get ill and die unless I take the meds. The stress led to me using recreational drugs to temporarily escape.
Hans asked if I felt any different when my viral load was high or low; no, whatever my CD4 and VL has been I've always felt fine.
I have an interesting relationship with my doctor; although we have different viewpoints and debate the topic hotly we remain friends and agree to disagree but the agenda is now becoming more apparrent to me. I had hoped to be monitored but not take the meds and see what happened whilst I continue researching. It looks like I was naive as at our last meeting she said that if I wasn't going to act on her advice there was very little point in continuing to go for blood tests. She then backtracked and said she still wanted me to go and tried to scare me wih stories of patients like me who had gone off and come crawling back sometime later with low CD4 counts and PCP, KS or Lymphoma. But this got me thinking, is that what they do with patients like me? We don't play ball so they send us off on our way because otherwise if we kept going there, didn't take meds and didn't become ill then that would show up all the flaws in their argument?
She also said that if I decided to start taking meds then I would have to buy into them and believe in them.....that sounds like a religion, not science and medicine!
Dissidentsg...you advised me to follow my heart and that's what I'm gonna do. Right now I feel the right thing to do is carry on with my wait and see policy whlst I continue to research. I can clearly see now how we are taught to trust authorities over and above what our instincts tell us to do.

resistanceisfruitful
March 4th, 2009, 12:35 AM
Sorry for the long post, but it seemed easiest to respond to yours point by point.

Folks here do not agree with all these points, but I'm mentioning the ones I've learned/read about that seem like reasonable explanations to consider:
October 2005
After 12 years of theoretically putting myself at risk through ocassional unprotected sex I finally got around to having the Hep B vaccine.
Unprotected. Do you mean anal? Active or passive? Exposure to semen may be one of many stressers, e.g. oxidative stress. Could be one of several assaults to your immune system.
In January 2006 I developed Hep B! I went back to the clinic and they told me the vaccine hadn't worked on me. Now I did have unprotected sex a couple of times between having the vaccine and developing Hep B so theoretically I could have caught it through sex but it seems like a hell of a coincidence! Could the vaccine have given me Hep B? Anyway I fought it off after 6 weeks, had my blood checked after 6 months and I was pronounced clear. I thought I got off lightly as a lot of people seem to be laid up for 9 months. When I discovered the dissident information I saw that Hep B and the vaccine can cause a HIV+ result so obviously I'm wondering if that's happened with me.
HepB, definite stressor on the immune system. So is the vaccine.
August 2007
After relentless pressure every time I went to the clinic for a check up I caved in and agreed to take a HIV test which came back positive. Initial CD4 result: 397; VL undetectable.
You have good reason to suspect you have other factors that could also cross-react with the test.
November 2007
CD4: 405; VL in the millions but the doctor said this was due to me having had a bad cold recently.
Surprised a doctor would concede this possibility.
December 2007
I caught syphilis. Took Doxycycline antibiotics which seemed to clear it.
Syphilis. Great impostor. Suspected by some as an possible alternative cause of AIDS-like symptoms and opportunistic infections.

Doxycycline and other antibiotics can damage (http://www.pharmharm.com/Kremersorted.html)the mitochondria of cells and cause other harm to the body. Many of us have been the victims of over-prescribed antibiotics. I've been kept on them for months at a time the past ten years, until I stopped all antibiotic use about a year ago. I wish I knew how much permanent harm that has caused me.
February 2008
CD4: 317 VL: 118k
I've read about how syphilis can affect the immune system and attibute the drop in CD4 to this. I also developed a fungal infection on my feet, arms and legs which the doctor gleefully announced could be due to HIV but I think the Doxycycline was more likely responsible. It cleared up anyway.

June 2008

CD4 344; VL 118k

August 2008
I caught Herpes. Having a real bad run of STD's here lol
Took Acyclovir and it cleared up after 5 weeks.
Fungal infections and herpes. More "defining" illnesses, no doubt. Not defining the HIV, but clearly messages to you that something in your life and body are disturbed, out-of-balance... in other words, "ill". Respond with prescription antifungals, and no doubt some acyclovir for the herpes, right? More stressors to the immune system.
September 2008
CD4 297 VL n/a

December 2008
CD4 212 VL 57k

January 2009
CD4 310 VL n/a
Interesting numbers, but in light of your other conditions, pretty meaningless actually.
These days I eat pretty healthily; lots of fruit, vegetables, fish, yoghurt. I also take multivitamin tablets, zinc, vit C, garlic and selenium.....must admit I feel quite well. I did eat lots of crap before the Hepatitis. I rarely drink alcohol but do have bad habits; I smoke 15 cigarettes a day, one cannabis joint a night and ocassionally take cocaine....approx half a gram to a gram once a month. Bad I know but that's on the wain and I feel can take it or leave it now. I'd be interested to know what effect cannabis has on the immune system; I've smoked a joint a night for the last 3 years and that started due to stress.
Honesty is admirable, but use of cigarettes and cocaine (or sugar) are obvious sins for someone wanting to restore their health. I'm being harsh, but I've been there too. You're wasting money on supplements as long as you continue to do these things (very personal opinion).

Cannabis was the last thing I gave up. It just didn't seem worth the risk. On the other hand, there is a lot of anectdotal testimony that it helps some people with appetite and nausea. Leave it until the last, but quit all other drugs. Period.
I don't exercise as much as I should although I look in good shape, not fat or anything. All the other tests they do at the clinic, liver, kidneys, cholestoral always come back excellent.
I deserve a good scolding about my own personal failure to do more on this account myself. I try. I really do, but the fatigue, joint pain and increasing girth make it really difficult. Oh yeah... those are the kind of excuses I wouldn't accept from anyone else, so that means I'm a hypocrite, right? :D
Stress....this is the big one. I've been in a state of constant psychological stress for the last 3 years, initially due to financial problems resulting in bankruptcy then the stress of testing positive, going to the clinic every 3 months and being told I'm going to get ill and die unless I take the meds. The stress led to me using recreational drugs to temporarily escape.
This is one of the points where I think you are answering so many of your own questions. Some things to try might include hypnosis, meditation, yoga, excercise (above), acupuncture and neurofeedback (biofeedback).
I've tried each of these at various times and have found they have more in common than different with each other. The trick is to learn better how your mind works and how to work with it to reduce how you deal with stress.

You don't really reduce stress itself... it's always with us. Taking more pharmaceutical drugs, like clonazapam, xanax and antidepressants just continue the chemical assault on the body, taxing an already overworked immune system.
Hans asked if I felt any different when my viral load was high or low; no, whatever my CD4 and VL has been I've always felt fine.
Another reason to keep the test results in context. The biggest change in my personal health came when I stopped measuring it with lab results and started judging it on how I felt. Why is that so hard for medical community to understand? Some people stop getting such tests done completely, and that's certainly an option. I need them for other purposes, but don't give them a lot of power over my choices and decisions. More hypocrisy, I guess.
I have an interesting relationship with my doctor; although we have different viewpoints and debate the topic hotly we remain friends and agree to disagree but the agenda is now becoming more apparrent to me. I had hoped to be monitored but not take the meds and see what happened whilst I continue researching. It looks like I was naive as at our last meeting she said that if I wasn't going to act on her advice there was very little point in continuing to go for blood tests. She then backtracked and said she still wanted me to go and tried to scare me wih stories of patients like me who had gone off and come crawling back sometime later with low CD4 counts and PCP, KS or Lymphoma. But this got me thinking, is that what they do with patients like me? We don't play ball so they send us off on our way because otherwise if we kept going there, didn't take meds and didn't become ill then that would show up all the flaws in their argument?

She also said that if I decided to start taking meds then I would have to buy into them and believe in them.....that sounds like a religion, not science and medicine!
Based on my experience, this is exactly how most doctors respond. No doubt she will tire of arguing and eventually dismiss you, if you don't fire them first. I used to fire them, then tried to live without them altogether, but that has proven more difficult than it should be. I'm on disability and require a cooperative doctor to sign the reviews every year or two.

Otherwise, I'd just rely on emergency room services for those times when a kidney stone lodges in my urethra, or when a blood clot lodges in my calf.

I have some fantasy that a doctor will take a look at the reversal in my decline, and ask me what I'm doing that's working so well. Hasn't happened yet.
Dissidentsg...you advised me to follow my heart and that's what I'm gonna do. Right now I feel the right thing to do is carry on with my wait and see policy whlst I continue to research. I can clearly see now how we are taught to trust authorities over and above what our instincts tell us to do.
I agree. I have also benefited from consulting with a few alternative practitioners, including naprapaths. That option seems to be better for those folks onthe coasts, or in very large cities and unfortunately that kind of care is rarely covered by insurance.

You are on a path. Your life will never be the same again. You are choosing to make changes that will improve your health and quality of life. Best wishes, and welcome to "the club". I'm sure you'll be getting a lot more advise, support and questions here.

HansSelyeWasCorrect
March 4th, 2009, 01:05 AM
That's a strange statement from the doctor because it's well known (and she be clear to a doctor) that many if not most people take medications as they wish, rather than as a doctor prescribes. I wish more "HIV infected" people would document their health as you did.

jonaskham
March 4th, 2009, 02:17 AM
When I say unprotected sex I'm talking about anal sex. I'm mostly active and in the period between 2002 when I last tested negative and 2007 when I tested positive I was passive maybe half a dozen times......only one guy came inside me on 2 occassions. He tested positive just after me. So even if the orthodoxy were correct about sexual tansmission which I don't believe they are, it strikes me as incredibly bad luck on my part! There are so many anomalies to the sexual transmission theory. I'm based in London, UK and an extreme example I can produce is a guy who holds monthly bareback parties for positive guys; he's had unprotected sex for many years, tests regularly and is always HIV negative.
I have meditated on and off since age 16 but have been doing it daily for the last couple of years. It's helped me see things more clearly and to trust what I feel inside. Cigarette use has declined to 15 a day from 25 a day seemingly amost effortlessly. I simply don't want to smoke as much as I did so hopefully it wil stop altogether at some point.
I have also been on antidepressants for 6 years, Efexor @ 75mg a day. I only wanted to take them for a short period but the doctor never told me that if I tried to come off them I would experience severe wihdrawal symptoms. Within 24 hours of missing a dose I get dizzy then feel progressively worse each day, headaches, sickness etc until I give in and start taking them again. I did some research on that and thousands of people all over the world suffer the same withdrawal symptoms.

dissidentsg
March 4th, 2009, 03:03 AM
Dear Jonaskham...you wrote:

"...an extreme example I can produce is a guy who holds monthly bareback parties for positive guys; he's had unprotected sex for many years, tests regularly and is always HIV negative..."

If the Mainstream scientists/doctors ever knew who this guy was, they will nab him. Why? So that they can get an excuse for more funding to dig out this "anti-HIV gene" that is probably embedded in his DNA. :p

Anyway, I'd just like to advise you to make the best out of your current situation. Step back and look at the entire situation with a positive mindset. For me, being diagnosed as "poz" few yrs back woke me up. In fact, Im thankful for it.

Why?

Because it enabled me to take care of my body better. Which led into a more healthier lifestyle (i used to smoke 10-15sticks a day too!) such as positive thinking, eating well and exercising regularly. Because of all the dissident material ive read and since one thing leads to another, it helped to broaden my knowledge of this world too. Looking back, i think i achieved so much in these few yrs of being "poz" as compared to those many many years without! :)

With regards to how open the world is to interpretation of things, I'll leave you with a thought quoted from a self-help book written by Tulku Thondup Rinpoche:

"Looking at a tree, a doctor may see it as a source of medicine or poison. A trader might calculate its monetary value, and a carpenter might measure its construction potential. A scientist might analyze its chemical and electrical impulses. A drunk might see the same tree as a wheel spinning over his head. A poet might lose herself in its beauty. A Christian might utter a prayer in praise of God's creation. A Buddhist might see the tree as a manifestation of interdependent causation or an expression of ultimate peace."

T.rex
March 4th, 2009, 03:21 AM
Their is conflicting scientific evidence that pot use is an immune suppressor. I think it can be such, but doesn't have to be.

To this day, they still debate if a glass of wine or coffee wards off cancer, or promotes cancer. There is evidence for both... I think in the long run, you have to just judge your own body on a continual basis.

i smoke the herb, though in minor amounts. Its a definite stress reliever for me, which is good, though it interupts solid sleeping habits, which is bad.

matthewi
March 4th, 2009, 03:25 AM
All the surrogate markers are tricky-CD4,VL, and the antibody test itself. A decreased CD4 can mean that your immune system is compromised or it could mean you were tanning or were infected with herpes-simplex. Same goes for a positive antibody test and a high VL.

Fondoo
March 4th, 2009, 03:36 AM
My recent labs told my natural path that my overall white count was very low but my %'s were perfectly balanced. I wonder if my low count overall is on account of lifelong chronic allergies because raising my counts seem like a very poor Idea,for one what if my allergies get worse.
I know my case is different than yours bro but I thought I would at least point out that I too have abnormal immune counts but enjoy long term clinical health without the cocktail or the every 4 month terror counts (4yrs +) :)

kiwi pete
March 4th, 2009, 04:40 AM
There is no doubt that amphetamine type drugs lower cd4 counts, in my own case annual cd4 numbers were 400-550 for 4yrs, not sure about VL but there were lots of naughts there. During that time I ate a pretty good diet and work involved exercise. There was the occassional recreation drugs.
In the 18 month between the last test I was a regular user of amphetamine, and I think its no coincidence that my cd4 count was 88.
Bit of a wakeup call but Im not concerned at this stage as I plan to alter my lifestyle and hopefully the Nrs will go up.
I must say had I not been a dissident the Drs prognosis would have been shattering lol.
Basically he said Im inline for a serious OI at any time and without meds I would be in real trouble, my health at the moment is fine. I dont live my life by the numbers at all, but it will be interesting to see my next resullts, of course the Dr says only HIV could do that even tho I told him about my lifestyle.

atreyu
March 5th, 2009, 09:28 PM
Hi all,
i'm sorry but i don't understand the VL count.
How is it possible to have a null VL count and after a month an high value?
WHy do they plan the VL test only to HIV positive people?
I think that it should be done to everybody and see what happens....
I think that once the VL count is zero, there's not needing for another test.
The VL is a measure of how "the virus" is replicating. If it is zero..it means no replication..

HansSelyeWasCorrect
March 5th, 2009, 09:48 PM
atreyu:

That's exactly what I've been saying for a long time. In fact, I'd be willing to put up my own money to do an experiment, since it shouldn't be difficult nor expensive. We would get volunteers who have acute flu, SLE, etc., but who tested "HIV negative" before onset of symptoms, and take their VLs. The question the orthodoxy would have to answer first, however, is how many false VL positive tests would be considered acceptable. This is where they are trapped, because if they say a high percentage, then the text makes no sense, and if they say a low percentage, they will be proven wrong when (and if) my experiment is done. The stipulation I always put on these offers is that I only pay if I'm wrong. If I'm right, someone else has to pay. When a scientific claim not only violates the scientific method, but also basic logic/common sense, there is no reason to give it a second thought. That is why all the "dissident hunters" I've contacted haven't responded (or haven't responded coherently) when I've put these kinds of offers to them.

atreyu
March 5th, 2009, 10:57 PM
The problem is that the doctors wount let you do the test if you are not positive..that's the answer in my country...strange isn'it??

jonaskham
March 6th, 2009, 03:25 PM
[QUOTE=atreyu;31962]
i'm sorry but i don't understand the VL count.
How is it possible to have a null VL count and after a month an high value?

Where I've put n/a means the viral load result is not available because my doctor didn't tell me what it was and I didn't ask. That struck me as strange considering the importance doctors place on it. On other ocassions I had to prompt her to tell me.
One time she was adamant that HIV neg people don't have viral loads; recently she conceded they do but in HIV pos people they can actually see the virus.
I've challenged her about Kary Mullis' comments on the viral load tests but she doesn't appear to have heard of him. Sometimes I feel like I know more about this subject than so called experts. I recently had an online debate with a microbiologist who believed totally in the HIV theory but had never heard of Gallo or Montagnier!
Something else that's stuck in my mind is a comment from a nurse at the clinic who told me I was very healthy and not to take risks as HIV needs cofactors to do damage.....interesting

Brian Carter
March 7th, 2009, 09:37 AM
[QUOTE=atreyu;31962]
......they do but in HIV pos people they can actually see the virus.

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc243/carter19604/Dissident%20Images/hollyshitsm.jpg

Has it really gotten this loony-toon out there? Ask her; when can you come and see "your" virus pictures. Ask for copies!

SadunKal
March 7th, 2009, 11:00 AM
I really find it fascinating that the mainstream ignores all the ridiculousness of the so called "viral load". Take a look at this thread too: http://forums.aidsmythexposed.com/main-forum/5486-now.html


Spanish doctors have reported a case of hidden, or “occult” HIV infection in the March 1st edition of Clinical Infectious Diseases. The case concerned a patient who was hospitalised with multiple opportunistic infections and a CD4 cell count of only 4 cells/mm3. HIV antibody tests were repeatedly negative, although tests showed that the patient had an HIV viral load of over 100,000 copies/ml.

What does it take for these people to start questioning their tests? And I thought they were already questioning the PCR. There is a reason why the antibody tests are approved for diagnosis and not the PCR.


...Once the doctor found out I was gay, he insisted on giving me an HIV test. After I tested negative, he did a viral load, and when that came back barely detectable (1,380), he said he had to check my T cells. Since my T cell count was 187, he gave me an AIDS diagnosis and prescriptions for three different drugs. What just happened? I feel like I’m trapped a nightmare. ...

Or maybe they are already beyond questioning the tests?
Do they rely on their instincts?

StarZ
March 8th, 2009, 03:45 AM
I have an interesting relationship with my doctor; although we have different viewpoints and debate the topic hotly we remain friends and agree to disagree but the agenda is now becoming more apparrent to me. I had hoped to be monitored but not take the meds and see what happened whilst I continue researching. It looks like I was naive as at our last meeting she said that if I wasn't going to act on her advice there was very little point in continuing to go for blood tests. She then backtracked and said she still wanted me to go and tried to scare me wih stories of patients like me who had gone off and come crawling back sometime later with low CD4 counts and PCP, KS or Lymphoma. But this got me thinking, is that what they do with patients like me? We don't play ball so they send us off on our way because otherwise if we kept going there, didn't take meds and didn't become ill then that would show up all the flaws in their argument?
She also said that if I decided to start taking meds then I would have to buy into them and believe in them.....that sounds like a religion, not science and medicine!....

Went to give bloods at the clinic the other day for my test in a week (London UK). Was informed that they would most likely be withdrawing their testing services if 1) customer did not then return for the consultation 2) thinly veiled threat that CD4/ VL testing would be withdrawn if one did not take standard advice. This was in response to the announcement that 'stable' customers ie those over 350 with or without could opt to get results emailed and fore go the consultation as long as they remained 'stable' unless they request it. I told her I might sign up for that as waiting for results was hugely stressful (even though it lasts 2 weeks I usually call in at the end of the first week so they can read it out). Being not-stable I was told that was unlikely I would be permitted an email even if I promise to attend religiously...Yes being a non-meds customer messes with their heads to no end

T.rex
March 9th, 2009, 06:37 PM
i think many hiv negative people will yield a measurable viral load on the PCR test. Christine Maggiore documented on her site, how she had a film crew going to film her undergo that test, but the clinic refused, explaining that they don't administer the PCR test unless the patient is proven to be hiv positive...

Apparently, the doctors grew tired of having to explain to countless negative people that even though the PCR test detects HIV, it is wrong.

it measures ALL viral particles just floating around in the body... In fact, it measures hiv fragments that have already been destroyed by the body's natural immune system.

How strange, that the PCR test is the test used to 'confirm' unclear test results, when it, itself, is the least specific and reliable.

Even THE BODY website admits that the PCR test should not be used for diagnostic tests because of the rate of false positives, but in the same sentence, they tell you to use PCR to clarify unclear results. Which is it?

Theatre Guy Z
March 10th, 2009, 02:05 AM
T. Rex cited The Body: The Complete HIV/AIDS Resource (http://www.TheBody.com) - here is the Q&A to which he refers:

QUESTION
Hi

This situation is stressing me out and I hope you can assist.

I went on PEP - COMBIVIR within 48 hours of possible exposure - I was on the course for 4 week. A week after I finnished the course I had my first HIV, ELISA & PCR test done which were all negative and was told not to worry.Another month after that I again went for a HIV,ELISA and PCR test done and it was negative.Would the PEP have any influence on these test results and do I have to do any other tests as I was told the PCR is very accurate but lately I have been getting mussle paints in my arms and read that it could be a symptom. Please assist as this is stressing me out.

Thanks

ANSWER
Response from Dr. Horwath:

The PCR tests provide accurate results within 3-4 weeks. You can be confident in the negative results.

The HIV antibody tests (ELISA and Western blot) are better screening tests because they have lower rates of false positives and are much less expensive than PCR.

StarZ
March 10th, 2009, 04:47 PM
[QUOTE=atreyu;31962]

Something else that's stuck in my mind is a comment from a nurse at the clinic who told me I was very healthy and not to take risks as HIV needs cofactors to do damage.....interesting

Jonaskh
you are in the Uk? which is your clinic. I need to move to someplace less hostile

jonaskham
March 10th, 2009, 07:33 PM
[QUOTE you are in the Uk? which is your clinic. I need to move to someplace less hostile[/QUOTE]

I go to the Caldecot Centre, part of Kings College Hospital, Camberwell. Good luck. You can contact me off board at jonaskham@hotmail.com if you wish