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msn_DissidentSaint
November 20th, 2003, 03:45 PM
<TABLE ><TR><TD><FONT size=2><DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>Hey All,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>The following&nbsp;comment and call to action&nbsp;was&nbsp;forwarded by David Rasnick and the article in Nature was written by AIDS Myth Exposed member-subscriber "DGBL" whose e-mail account says "Declan Butler." <A target=_top href="http://groups.msn.com/AIDSMythExposed/profile?user=DBGL%E2%9C%93"><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>http://groups.msn.com/AIDSMythExposed/profile?user=DBGL%E2%9C%93</FONT></A><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>&nbsp;I m not certain if Declan is an independent&nbsp;journalist or&nbsp;on either side of this&nbsp;debate, though it appears unbiased. Interesting that Nature s correspondants have wandered upon this forum.&nbsp;</FONT>Although you cannot read the article he wrote&nbsp;online without subscribing to Nature, you can see the title on the home page and it is reproduced below...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=1>It is interesting to note that our beloved Brian Foley is quoted as saying his responses to AIDS Dissidents on this forum and elsewhere, including the&nbsp;BMJ,&nbsp;it is not a worthwhile use of his time! Well, well,&nbsp;apparently his time is not worth much then&nbsp;as he&nbsp;feels it necessary to&nbsp;*waste* it in this&nbsp;way.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=1>Kelly Jon Landis</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>From Dave Rasnick: <BR><BR>In this week s Nature, British Medical Journal s rapid response forum is under attack by AIDS Inc. because it publishes dissident views. Before this forum is shut down, you have an opportunity to let BMJ know that you support its commitment to free and open discourse and debate. Go to <BR><BR><A target=_top href="http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/"><FONT color=#000000>http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/</FONT></A></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=1> <HR> </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>&nbsp;<BR> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=1>BRITISH MEDICAL JOURNAL [BMJ] "RAPID RESPONSE" LETTERS SECTION MODERATED</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=1>ONLINE DEBATE ON HIV/AIDS: </FONT><A target=_top title=http://bmj.com/cgi/eletters/326/7387/495 href="http://bmj.com/cgi/eletters/326/7387/495"><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=1>http://bmj.com/cgi/eletters/326/7387/495</FONT></A><FONT size=+0><BR><BR><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=1>[especially note referenced contributions of The Perth Group of Austrailian AIDS Dissident Scientists, lead by biophysicist Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos, whose other extensive archives are found here on VirusMyth: </FONT></FONT><FONT face=Verdana size=1><FONT face=Verdana size=1><A target=_top title=http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/perthgroup/ href="http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/perthgroup/"><FONT color=#000000>http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/perthgroup/</FONT></A></FONT><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=1> </FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Verdana size=1><FONT color=#000000>and&nbsp;here on&nbsp;The&nbsp;Perth Groups &nbsp;own&nbsp;website, you will find an updated, extensive index: </FONT><A target=_top href="http://www.theperthgroup.com/"><FONT color=#000000>http://www.theperthgroup.com</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000>]</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></FONT> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>NATURE </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>VOL 426 | 20 NOVEMBER 2003</FONT></DIV> <DIV><A target=_top href="http://www.nature.com/nature"><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>www.nature.com/nature</FONT></A><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1> 215 <BR><BR>The British Medical journal under attack as <BR>dissenters seize AIDS platform <BR><BR>Declan Butler <BR><BR>BMJ (British Medical Journal) is under <BR>fire from AIDS researchers over a series of <BR>publications on its website. The postings in <BR>question make up a steady stream of unreviewed <BR>articles from people who deny that <BR>HIV causes AIDS. <BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>The dispute crystallizes the conflict <BR>between a journal?s desire to experiment <BR>with open, unmoderated electronic debate <BR>and its fundamental obligation to readers to <BR>provide them with authentic information, <BR>researchers say. <BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>If you search the BMJ?s website for ?AIDS? <BR>in all articles published over the past two <BR>years, the results are surprising. One in six of <BR>the top 300 returns are written by AIDS ?revisionists?. <BR>Add in responses to these missives, <BR>and more than one-third of the returned <BR>articles centre on that debate. <BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>The disproportionate prominence of this <BR>discussion compared with other AIDS issues <BR>is angering some researchers.They point out <BR>that almost all of the articles concerned are <BR>unreviewed ?Rapid Responses? ? electronic <BR>letters to the editor that are published within <BR>24 hours, and are screened only to exclude <BR>libel or breaches of patient confidentiality. <BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>David Rasnick, a leading AIDS sceptic, <BR>accounts for 46 Rapid Responses published <BR>since January 2002. Rasnick,a chemist who is a <BR>visiting scholar at the University of California, <BR>Berkeley, gives his affiliation as ?a member of <BR>the Presidential AIDS Advisory Panel of South <BR>Africa?. Another sceptic, Eleni Papadopulos- <BR>Eleopulos,a biophysicist at Royal Perth Hospital <BR>in Australia,has made 33 postings. <BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>Researchers complain that the credibility <BR>conferred on Rapid Responses by the BMJ <BR>label may mislead policy-makers and members <BR>of the public over the debate.?It looks to <BR>the unsuspecting that this is solid stuff,? says <BR>Simon Wain-Hobson, who studies AIDS at <BR>the Pasteur Institute in Paris.Wain-Hobson is <BR>one of several AIDS researchers who argue <BR>that unfettered debate on the BMJ website <BR>offers revisionists an opportunity to punch <BR>well above their weight in a renowned journal. <BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>Brian Foley, an AIDS researcher at the Los <BR>Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, <BR>is one of the scientists most active in responding <BR>to the revisionists? BMJ postings. He criticizes <BR>the BMJ for allowing what he describes as <BR>the misuse of a respectable scientific journal <BR>to contribute to the dissemination of disinformation. <BR>?I do not think responding to BMJ posts is a </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>worthwhile use of my time,? he says. <BR></DIV></FONT> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>Many scientists argue that not responding <BR>is the best policy. John Moore, an AIDS <BR>researcher at Cornell University in New York, <BR>is an example. He says that revisionists are <BR>best ignored: ?It?s an unwinnable debate <BR>based on faith not fact.? <BR></DIV></FONT> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>Richard Smith, editor of the BMJ, admits <BR>that a problem of unmoderated forums is that <BR>one side of an argument can ?lose by attrition? <BR>to a more vocal minority.But Smith also cherishes <BR>the principle of Rapid Responses, which <BR>have solicited more than 20,000 submissions <BR>since being introduced five years ago. Its </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>philosophy, says Smith, is based on free speech. <BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>But such aspirations cut little ice with Moore.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>?The BMJ is wrong to grant the revisionists <BR>space in what should be considered a <BR>prestigious journal,? he says. The quality <BR>threshold for publishing Rapid Responses is <BR>?obviously very low?, says Smith, who <BR>admits that some people abuse the system <BR>by ?pursuing vendettas or obsessions, by <BR>writing every day, or at excessive length?. <BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>But Smith feels that this is the price to pay <BR>for the benefits of free debate. ?Freedom of <BR>speech means you end up with lots of abuses,? <BR>he says.?I continue to think it is the right thing <BR>to do.?But whereas the BMJ?s editorial board <BR>has unanimously endorsed this general principle, <BR>he says that as a result of researchers? criticisms, </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>he may raise the specific issue of AIDS revisionism </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>with both this body and the journal?s ethics committee. <BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>Rasnick says that he ?applauds the BMJfor <BR>having the courage and integrity to allow <BR>debate?and questions why mainstream AIDS <BR>researchers complain so much ?if their position <BR>is so secure?. He says that he wants to <BR>know why ?over 100,000 scientists and doctors, <BR>the 140,000 papers, and the $118 billion <BR>spent all combined have not come up with the <BR>proof that AIDS is contagious; that AIDS is <BR>sexually transmitted; that HIV causes AIDS; <BR>that anti-HIV drugs do more good than <BR>harm;or that AIDS is devastating and depopulating <BR>Africa or anywhere else.?Most AIDS researchers </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>strongly dispute these assertions. Smith adds that </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>in the immediate future the BMJ may add a visible </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>health warning to its Rapid Responses to indicate </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>their unreviewed nature, or may change the BMJ?s </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>default online search option ? currently set <BR>to include ?Articles and Rapid Responses?? <BR>to ?Articles only?. <BR></FONT></DIV> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0> <TBODY> <TR> <TD vAlign=top align=left colSpan=3 height="100%"> <P><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1></FONT><FONT><BR><BR>&nbsp;</P></FONT></TD></TR> <TR> <TD noWrap align=right colSpan=3 height=20><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" color=#000000 size=1>&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE>

msn_aidsmythexposed-dot-com
November 20th, 2003, 06:40 PM
<TABLE ><TR><TD><FONT size=2>That s REALLY weird! I could have SWORN I saw a message on this forum that the user "DBGL" posted. I m pretty sure I accepted it, too.<BR><BR>Now, however, there is NO record of ANY message in his profile :-o (<a target=_top href="http://groups.msn.com/AIDSMythExposed/profile?user=DBGL%E2%9C%93">STILL HERE</a>) <BR><BR>What s THAT about?! He must have deleted it himself? Maybe he was afraid he would seem UN-biased in his article for "Nature" if he had posted a message here. I m glad, Kelly, that you pointed this out to us.<BR><BR>Funny, but when I looked at the debate last night it had actually appeared to be a while since the Perth Group or ANY dissident had posted anything on the BMJ site. What WAS posted recently, though, was the transcript of Luc Montagnier s interview with science journalist Dhajmel Tahi (<a target=_top href="http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/dtinterviewlm.htm">http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/dtinterviewlm.htm</a>).<BR><BR>Rod Knoll,<BR>Moderator,<BR>AIDS Myth Exposed<BR><a target=_top href="http://www.aidsmythexposed.com">www.aidsmythexposed.com</a></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE>

msn_DissidentSaint
November 21st, 2003, 01:08 PM
<TABLE ><TR><TD><FONT size=2><DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" size=1>Hey All,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" size=1>Another false impression is that all&nbsp;"rapid&nbsp;response"&nbsp;messages posted&nbsp;to the BMJ board are unmoderated.&nbsp;From my understanding, "MrChristopher" or Chris Tyler&nbsp;has stated that not all his posts&nbsp;were&nbsp;accepted. For the editor to make this statement is interesting. They are not "peer revied" this is true, but they are moderated to some extent.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" size=1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" size=1>Please, everyone,&nbsp;remember to&nbsp;send your comments to the e-mail address listed under "contact" on the&nbsp;BMJ website&nbsp;opposing</FONT><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" size=1>&nbsp;scientific</FONT><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" size=1>&nbsp;censorship and&nbsp;opposing the suggestion by&nbsp;BMJ s editor that the&nbsp;Editorial Board remove "rapid responses" from their search engine, distinguishing them from "articles." Peer review is hardly&nbsp;fail proof and we need this sort of free scientific inquiry, exchange.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" size=1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" size=1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" size=1>Warmly,</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" size=1>Kelly Jon Landis&nbsp;</FONT></DIV></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE>

msn_agere_contra
November 21st, 2003, 10:59 PM
<TABLE ><TR><TD><FONT size=2><P><FONT face="Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" size=2>Kelly</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" size=2>I ve&nbsp;mailed to the Editorial team (Tony Delamothe, Kamran Abbasi): I hope these are the right people.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" size=2>If not, let us know. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial size=2>warm regards,</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Agere</FONT></P></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE>

msn_briancady413
November 23rd, 2003, 07:30 AM
<TABLE ><TR><TD><FONT size=2><DIV>In starting to respond to Nature, I saw that weblished with Daclan B. s piece, two below it on the page, is Allison Abbot s piece on the dangers of whistle-blowing in Germany, ironically enough.</DIV> <DIV>And it was free, for Declan s Nature wants me to pay.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><A target=_top href="http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v426/n6964/full/426218b_fs.html">www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v426/n6964/full/426218b_fs.html</A></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Brian Cady</DIV></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE>